Last update broke thieving in Simulacra

[subtledoctor]

In the 2.6 patch, clones created by Simulacrum are affected by opcode 144 effects which disable thief skill buttons, so if a mage/thief casts Simulacrum or a thief uses Vhailor's Helm, the clone will not be able to detect traps, or dispel illusions, or hide in shadows ability. This seems to be a pretty blatantly intentional addition on Beamdog's part, but I cannot see any rationale for it; why wouldn't a cloned thief be able to hide? Note, this means Shadowdancer clones cannot use Hide in Plain Sight, which is the kit's signature ability... and the kit also has an HLA that creates a simulacrum. In that context this change seems kind of crazy to me. It was claimed to be a bug in the Beamdog forum, and Beamdog reps did not deny or push back against that claim. People just said, in essence, "have patience, wait for the 2.7 patch."

(Also note that the change only affects the buttons - the clones can still be scripted to use thief skills, if clones can be scripted.)

It's been quite a while since I dabbled with Simulacrum spells, but I'm pretty sure this would be quite easy to fix, by simply patching SIMULACR.SPL. If people agree it ought to be fixed.

EDIT - (crap, has jmerry already gotten to this? I bet he did. Why don't we just make his mod the Fixpack and go home? )

Edited March 23, 2022 by subtledoctor

[suy]

6 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

This seems to be a pretty blatantly intentional addition on Beamdog's part, but I cannot see any rationale for it

I think that Bubb mentioned this being not intentional, actually.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, suy said:

I think that Bubb mentioned this being not intentional, actually.

I glanced at SIMULACR.SPL and somebody clearly added a couple op144 effects that were not there in the 2.5 version. I don’t think it’s possible for that to happen by mistake. So it was done intentionally... but that doesn’t mean it’s intended to be in the game. Maybe it was added for testing something, and they forgot to remove it before release? Maybe it was like the potion-stacking thing in the 2.6 beta - Beamdog getting overzealous with balance changes, only to realize later that players don’t like it? Hard to say. 

To be clear though, I’m in favor of treating it like a bug, because 

1. It’s weird and bad

2. It was suggested on the BD boards that it would be reverted in 2.7

3. The fix is super-duper simple

[DavidW]

I think it’s a real stretch to say that something isn’t developer intent because for all we know it was added for testing or because maybe BD decided later it was a bad idea but forgot to remove it. I agree that it’s a bad change, but I’d need some explicit info from the developers before wanting to call it a bug.

[CamDawg]

I'm here mainly to "^ this" David's post. In the interest of adding something of substance:

• Random posters saying "this is a bug" doesn't mean it's a bug. Even a blue gradient post doesn't mean it either as every BD person has the blue background, not just the devs, and some posters (like Ardanis) are devs but no longer have their blue gradient.
• As for a testing change getting into the game: testers cannot insert anything into the build process. They can certainly make their own changes and convince a dev to put it into the build process, but that's as close as it gets. String changes are a little more open, but still have a sign-off process.
• Things being poor design decisions or unbalanced is not the scope of a fix in a Fixpack. Putting together an 'Optional But Cool: we think these are good changes'? Sure.

[Bubb]

Both Balquo and Galactygon say this is a bug:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/1169333/#Comment_1169333

[suy]

Thanks Bubb. This was what I meant.

[CamDawg]

1 hour ago, Bubb said:

Both Balquo and Galactygon say this is a bug:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/1169333/#Comment_1169333

Excellent, then we're good to go fixing this.

[jmerry]

I did get to this, though I wouldn't blindly take my option as the best fix. I put it in the "Rule Changes" group rather than "Bug Fixes", after all.

In base 2.6, clones (through PROJIMAG.SPL and SIMULACR.SPL) can't hide, search for traps, or use sequencers and contingencies. They also lose temporary abilities like those granted by Polymorph Self, and the protagonist-only Pocket Plane and Slayer Change abilities. There's also a MISLEAD.SPL, but I left that one alone; Mislead clones shouldn't be able to act at all.

My tweak gives back the hiding, trap-searching, sequencers, and contingencies. Though of course a clone would have to "memorize" new sequencers/contingencies, as they don't inherit from the caster. I then remove the Thieving button; the engine prevents clones from interacting with ground regions, containers, or doors anyway, and picking pockets could cause problems when the clone expires and the items disappear.

[RoyalProtector]

What the title says, simulacra with thieving abilities cannot hide in the shadows and IIRC, also cannot detect traps/illusions

[Guest guest]

Simulacra are level drained copies. If a dual class is involved, then the inactive class might not have one less level than active class and their class abilities would be inactive. You could try restoration to restore lost levels.

[RoyalProtector]

No, it happens with pure class thieves as well.

[suy]

This has been mentioned in this older thread:

 

[RoyalProtector]

Oh, my bad.

[CamDawg]

47 minutes ago, RoyalProtector said:

Oh, my bad.

No worries! suy meant that as "we're already on it", not as "don't post stuff we already know about". I'd rather have 10 bug reports for the same issue than miss something because someone was discouraged from posting.