[BG1] Open the Gates! Possible from beginning?

[Jebarkas]

I know that the titular Baldur's Gate city is closed for story-line reasons, but it occured to me it's actually pretty weird that city that the game was named after is unavailable until endgame - a point where you're already OP and spent many hours into the game, thus not too eager to explore another city thoroughly.

It would be so much fun if Baldur's Gate was available from the very start. Make BG1 even more open-world than it already is and think about all new meta strategies that might emerge!

I'm looking for a BG1 mod that would open the city from chapter 1 (of course in a non-breaking way). I'm thinking something like open Cloakwood Forest component from The Tweaks Anthology mod.

Was there ever such a mod? I couldn't find any.

Edit: @mods: sorry if it's the wrong forum category, couldn't find "looking for mod..." thread.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Jebarkas

[Graion Dilach]

Doubt there is one around and it's not as simple as the Cloakwood component either.

Note that the Cloakwood Tweaks components never open the Mines.

This is important because while Cloakwood doesn't have any relevant content up until the Mines are reached, Baldur's Gate is just full of NPCs and side content which refer the player dealing with the bandits/the mines/everything until that point. Opening the agte would be simple basically, but dealing with all that inconsistency is the hard part and this doesn't include potential mod content running along.

[The_Baffled_King]

8 hours ago, Jebarkas said:

It would be so much fun if Baldur's Gate was available from the very start. Make BG1 even more open-world than it already is

Agreed 100%.

What do you mean by "in a non-breaking way"? In a non-modded game, I'm fairly certain that nothing breaks in a mechanical sense unless you go through the Chapter 5 to Chapter 6 transition (the conversation with Duke Eltan having successfully investigated the Iron Throne) without first advancing to Chapter 5.

[Jebarkas]

1 hour ago, The_Baffled_King said:

What do you mean by "in a non-breaking way"? In a non-modded game, I'm fairly certain that nothing breaks in a mechanical sense

In strictly mechanical sense I don't think so either, but it can ruin immersion.

Normally most NPCs should be oblivious to events that you took part in shortly before entering the city (solving Nashkel mine problems, beating Iron Throne minions in Peldvale and Cloakwood), all no name NPCs talk about are tensions with Amn, but your meddling in politics will disturb some NPCs who give it away in their speeches, i.e. Lothander and Marek, they give you a warning to not do that. Obviously if you would go straight to them before even putting a foot in Nashkel Mine they should have no reason to mention that, or perhaps they shouldn't even be there to begin with. It's just an example, there are more such encounters in BG that would have to be adjusted.

[The_Baffled_King]

25 minutes ago, Jebarkas said:

In strictly mechanical sense I don't think so either, but it can ruin immersion.

Yes, that's something I value. I just thought I'd doublecheck that you weren't in the "get me to Baldur's Gate early - I don't care what the NPCs say" camp.

[Endarire]

Code-wise, what's involved in making a mod that simply opens Wyrm's Crossing (the bridge to BG City) from the start?  I assume it comes with a standard warning of, "This may mess up your game if you do X, meaning don't do X until time Y."

[jastey]

@Endarire opening up is just closing a door (the jawbridge) technically (from AR0900.bcs):

IF
	Global("Chapter","GLOBAL",5)
	Global("Drawbridge","GLOBAL",0)
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		SetGlobal("Drawbridge","GLOBAL",1)
		CloseDoor("DoorDraw")
END

The problem is, that the devs assumed that it's chapter 5 when the player enters the city, i.e.very dialogue of people inside would need to be adjusted, chapter specific happenings would need to be disabled until chapter 5, etcpp.

[The_Baffled_King]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:32 PM, Graion Dilach said:

Baldur's Gate is just full of NPCs and side content which refer the player dealing with the bandits/the mines/everything until that point.

In addition to the comments in this thread, I've seen sentiments like those quoted above expressed elsewhere, and I really don't know why this view is widespread. It isn't consistent with my general impression; more importantly, when I ran the numbers, I found that my general impression was broadly accurate.

I have literally no investment whatsoever in being right about this for its own sake. However, I might end up releasing a mod that allows early access to BG city, and threads that overemphasise the difficulties of early access to BG city are really not in the interests of that mod. So, that's the reason for my post - I'll now continue with it.

Before the update to v2.6, I checked for actors that (a) are in areas reached via the bridge in Wyrm's Crossing; (b) are in areas reachable in Chapter 5; (c) are not in the Iron Throne tower; and (d) have unique .cre resrefs attached. I arrived at a figure of 185, excluding a few oddities and irrelevances*. There are few creatures not appearing as area actors that both have dialogue and also conform to points (a) - (d), and I'll highlight only the most important: Quayle, Tiax, Alora, Skie, and Scar. This leaves 190 creatures.

Of these 190 creatures, some have no dialogue, so they're just padding the numbers. 11 examples stand out: the 5 unnamed Sewerfolk, 4 of the group of 5 Ogre Mages, and the unique Greater Basillisk and Mustard Jelly that are linked to quests. Proceeding with a broad-brush estimate that there are 9 others, that leaves 170 creatures.

Eyeballing my list of 170 creatures, I found only 12 with dialogue that doesn't make much sense before some of the events of Chapters 0-4 have taken place:

1. Scar (Wyrm's Crossing and BG S)
2. Elminster (BG E)
3. Husam (BG E, Thieves' Guild - volunteers info about the Iron Throne)
4. Entillus Fulsom (BG S - a Harper who volunteers info about the Iron Throne, but will attack low-rep parties instead)
5. Mick Feelie (BG E - messenger, bringing news of the liberation of the Nashkel mines)
6. Ocellis (BG NW - commoner who mentions that the Grand Dukes are debating declaring war)
7. Gorpel Hind (BG NW, Helm and Cloak - leader of the adventurers at the bar)
8. Zorl (BG S, Merchants' League Estate - hidden unless Aldeth Sashenstar is helped in Cloakwood; his letters are more out of place than his dialogue)
9. Marek (BG NE - Iron Throne assassin, partnered with Lothander)
10. Lothander (BG NE - Iron Throne assassin, partnered with Marek)
11. Larze (BG NE, Blushing Mermaid - ogre bounty hunter)
12. Ogre Mage (BG S, Generic building - leader of 5 Ogre Mage bounty hunters)

12 out of 170 is just 7%, or 1 per master area (including the sewers). There may be a few more such creatures, but nowhere near enough to change the trend.

The numbers above don't include generic creatures that share dialogue files, the most prominent of which are as follows: male commoners (7), female commoners (4), male "fat" commoners (1), female "fat" commoners (1), noblemen (3), noblewomen (2), boys (2), girls (3), beggars (1), and courtesans (9). There are also rumors to consider (1). Note that the bracketed figures, which add up to 34, refer to the number of different dialogue files used by these unnamed generic creatures or by BG city rumors.

Of these 34 dialogue files, only five contain dialogue states that are problematic before Chapter 5. I guess that the rumor dialogues for BG city were copied in part from earlier in the game because, like the earlier rumor dialogues, you won't get rumors about the liberation of the Nashkel mines unless Mulahey is dead. [Edit] The two BG city rumors regarding the Iron Throne share the problem that I describe in the following paragraph. [/Edit] That leaves four files.

Of the four remaining files, the two for noblemen and noblewomen are not problematic in terms of their text, but 1/4 and 1/6 of their respective randomly-chosen dialogue states create journal quest entries for "Investigating the Iron Throne", which is a bit premature before Chapter 5. This necessitates adding a second textless transition without a journal entry, and adding mutually exclusive response triggers to the original transition and the added transition, which doesn't seem too difficult to me.

This leaves only the two files for the most frequently-encountered male and female commoners (which are admittedly the most frequently-encountered creatures overall). Generic male commoners have 3/11 randomly-chosen dialogue states that reference events of Chapters 0-4; generic female commoners have 2/9 randomly-chosen dialogue states of this type. This requires a little more work to fix than the nobles' dialogue, but I'm sure modders will agree that it would not be too taxing in the grand scheme of things.

On 5/12/2022 at 5:32 PM, Graion Dilach said:

it's not as simple as the Cloakwood component either.

However, I'm not disagreeing with the above. If one is concerned about the storyline, early access to BG city is its own mod rather than a tweak.

On 5/12/2022 at 5:32 PM, Graion Dilach said:

this doesn't include potential mod content running along.

I'm not disagreeing with the above, either. Potential conflicts with mod content is a matter that depends on the mods one has installed.

 

*the oddity is a single misplaced Beregost commoner; the irrelvances are nameless NPCs with multiple different .cre resrefs that share dialogue, but which count among their number certain .cre resrefs that are used only once.

Edited May 17, 2022 by The_Baffled_King
Sentence added to the paragraph that begins with "Of these 34 dialogue files"

[Awachi]

I'm not familiar with fantasy bounty hunting, but would going to a big city be safer for Charname after fleeing Candlekeep than wandering the wilderness? Seems like most of the problems with early access can solved with a few "chapter > 4" checks. 

[The_Baffled_King]

3 hours ago, Awachi said:

I'm not familiar with fantasy bounty hunting, but would going to a big city be safer for Charname after fleeing Candlekeep than wandering the wilderness?

Speaking as someone equally unfamiliar with fantasy bounty hunting, I think the point appears to be a good one! On it's face, it's more plausible to the average CRPG player than some of the other plot-related shenanigans that Bioware pull. Also, 1/1 Gorions agree with you:

"... All that is certain is that we will be far safer on the move. Perhaps the woods might offer some secluded security, or perhaps the city of Baldur's Gate would offer cover amidst its teeming throngs of people. I do not know where we shall end up, but I have a few friends here and there. Hmm, I will think on this."

3 hours ago, Awachi said:

Seems like most of the problems with early access can solved with a few "chapter > 4" checks. 

Pretty much - at least for the vanilla content.

Edited May 16, 2022 by The_Baffled_King

[Graion Dilach]

/remindme 2023-06-30 to go through this research and compare it against megamod installs to see if an earlytweak mod option is feasible.

Joking aside, I expected worse numbers so that does sound feasible if combined with a few filters to rule out plot NPCs.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Graion Dilach

[Endarire]

Thankee!  This tweak seems appealing!

[Jebarkas]

On 5/16/2022 at 7:41 PM, The_Baffled_King said:

This leaves only the two files for the most frequently-encountered male and female commoners (which are admittedly the most frequently-encountered creatures overall). Generic male commoners have 3/11 randomly-chosen dialogue states that reference events of Chapters 0-4; generic female commoners have 2/9 randomly-chosen dialogue states of this type. This requires a little more work to fix than the nobles' dialogue, but I'm sure modders will agree that it would not be too taxing in the grand scheme of things.

Where do I donate to make this mod happen?  For inspiration, I've just discovered OlvynChuru's Tweaks - in similar fashion it opens Nashkel Mines back cave entrance and Candlekeep Catacombs (but in a smart way, with NPCs removed until you reach the relevant chapter).

[The_Baffled_King]

3 minutes ago, Jebarkas said:

For inspiration, I've just discovered OlvynChuru's Tweaks - in similar fashion it opens Nashkel Mines back cave entrance and Candlekeep Catacombs (but in a smart way, with NPCs removed until you reach the relevant chapter).

Oh, opening up the Candlekeep Catacombs like that is a really, really interesting idea! It's food for thought, certainly. Allowing access to Nashkel Mines via the cave entrance was something I'd already thought of and was planning on including as an optional tweak in the mod I'm planning on making.

3 minutes ago, Jebarkas said:

Where do I donate to make this mod happen?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not interested in making a mod or a component designed only for the purpose of allowing early access to BG city - if that was what had attracted me to IE modding, then I think I probably would have made that mod by now.

What I am interested in making is a more substantial mod that allows for Chapters 1-6 to be completed in any order, which would allow early access to BG city by default. Such a mod would necessarily adapt some parts of the vanilla content to make it available ahead of time, whereas this thread is just about hiding out-of-place content.

I call this proposed mod "Baldur's Gate: Open World" (BG:OW). If you have any questions about it, then I'll briefly answer them if asked in this thread (I don't recommend reading the thread from the beginning; it took a few tangents, and my conception of what I wanted to do changed within the thread, not to mention the 11 months since). Note that I haven't yet released any mods, so please feel free to take that into account when deciding if it's worth your time to ask about BG:OW.

It goes without saying that the above mod would introduce more potential incompatibilities with other mods than a more limited "Open the Gates" mod. In recognition of that fact, a modder might take the approach "don't make BG:OW", or a player might take the approach "don't install BG:OW". However, it also goes without saying that these are not the only reasonable approaches that modders, or players, might take.

[subtledoctor]

On 5/16/2022 at 3:36 PM, The_Baffled_King said:

On it's face, it's more plausible to the average CRPG player than some of the other plot-related shenanigans that Bioware pull. Also, 1/1 Gorions agree with you:

"... All that is certain is that we will be far safer on the move. Perhaps the woods might offer some secluded security, or perhaps the city of Baldur's Gate would offer cover amidst its teeming throngs of people. I do not know where we shall end up, but I have a few friends here and there. Hmm, I will think on this."

I mean, I don’t often do this but let’s give Bioware *some* credit here. I’m pretty sure that line was included specifically because going there would result in being turned away. I mean if it was me I would go to BG and then keep going north to Neverwinter, or catch a boat somewhere. The plot has got to get you to Nashkel some way or other, and if opening up the city means the only reason you go there is out of boredom, I would find that much less compelling. Finally getting access to the big city, back in 1998, made for a big reveal and a really exciting moment in the game.

That said, this is talking about a mod so a lot of those considerations go out the window. I don’t think anyone around here (maybe bar one) has tried or would try to dissuade you from such a project.