Ninja to of the Scarlet Brotherhood unsuitable for backstab

[RoyalProtector]

Maybe I'm missing something but there doesn't seem to be any reason why it would be unsuitable. I'd propose removing that limitation.

[Andrea C.]

If I had to venture a guess, I would say it’s because it’s supposed to be a Monk weapon specifically and Monks can’t backstab.

Of course a case can be made for the fact that a ninja-to is a ninja-to, and making one for a Monk would not imply forging it in a way that it couldn’t be used to stab someone in the back. In the hands of a thief with UAI, it should certainly behave like any other ninja-to in that regard.

[The Artisan]

Anything with a 'not-usable by thief' flag is innately made unable to backstab. I have a upcoming tweak aiming to change that by making thief usability come from a different source, but the mod still needs an update.

[RoyalProtector]

21 minutes ago, The Artisan said:

Anything with a 'not-usable by thief' flag is innately made unable to backstab.

Yes, I just checked that. I removed the flags and it works then. Thanks.

I suppose this would be more a tweak than a fix so it's outside the scope of this mod. I don't really like how vanilla handles it though.

[suy]

FYI, this also affects some other special weapons. The Staff of the Magi is the other well known weapon which can't be used to backstab by T/M, for example, because a single class Thief can't use it.

Now that you mention, though, I've remembered this conversation with @CamDawg on Discord a good while ago, which hopefully you don't mind me quote:

[ 5:39 PM ] suy : A pity the backstabbing weapon is so hardcoded. Backstabbing
with an Axe would be fun.
[ 5:50 PM ] CamDawg :

COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~^.+\.itm$~ ~override~
  READ_LONG 0x1e usability
  PATCH_IF ((usability & BIT22) = BIT22) BEGIN // if unusable by thieves
    WRITE_LONG 0x1e (THIS BAND `BIT22) // remove thief flag
    LPF ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT INT_VAR opcode = 319 target = 1 parameter1 = 4 parameter2 = 5 timing = 2 special = 818 END // add back as 319
  END
  BUT_ONLY  

 
[ 5:50 PM ] CamDawg : EE-only though
[ 6:09 PM ] suy : But that's changing the usability flag for regular use as
well, right? I meant to keep an axe/bastard sword/etc still away for a thief,
but allow a f/t to backstab with a weapon usable for them. I looked at the
decompiled code, and it seemed hardcoded to me. But of course, noob on the
topic, so with a grain of salt.
[ 6:12 PM ] CamDawg : I remove the thief flag, yes, but keep it unusable by
thieves by adding the 319 effect.
[ 6:12 PM ] CamDawg : So it makes all weapons available for backstab without
changing their actual usability.
[ 6:13 PM ] suy : 
[ 6:13 PM ] suy : Why is this not in Tweaks Anthology then? 
[ 6:13 PM ] CamDawg : Because I just wrote it now.
[ 6:13 PM ] CamDawg : But it'll be in the next Tweaks, sure.

I forgot to ask CamDawg about this, so I'll do now: what do you think, should be on Tweaks still, or can be better on the EEFP?

[subtledoctor]

I don’t remember: does UAI trump opcode 319? Or does opcode 319 trump UAI?

Because if it’s the latter, then this tweak won’t help. 

[CamDawg]

Oh heh, I had totally forgotten about this. Yes, UAI trumps the 319.

edit: It needs add some type checking to the code--right now this makes everything (e.g. 2H swords) available for backstab, but I should cut it back down to the normal thief weapons. So it'll make stuff like Staff of the Magi and Ninjatō of the Scarlet Brotherhood available for backstab, but not bastard swords and the like.

Edited May 25, 2022 by CamDawg

[RoyalProtector]

Quote

 It needs add some type checking to the code--right now this makes everything (e.g. 2H swords) available for backstab, but I should cut it back down to the normal thief weapons. So it'll make stuff like Staff of the Magi and Ninjatō of the Scarlet Brotherhood available for backstab, but not bastard swords and the like.

Personally I wouldn't mind making two handed swords available for backstab. I sometimes envision blackguards "backstabbing" (sneak attacking rather), with a two-handed sword. They should probably be limited to 2x backstab multiplier for balance reasons, however. It sounds pretty damn cool in my opinion to play BG as a blackguard who can make use of invisibility potions that way. Spoiler below about the end of SoD.

Spoiler

Even Caelar does this at the end of SoD if she becomes Belhifet's blackguard.

In fact, I think I will modify a few of clearly "blackguard" swords to allow such thing in my current playthrough. I'm thinking Dorn's swords, the Unholy Reaver and Soul Reaver.

Edited May 25, 2022 by RoyalProtector

[CamDawg]

Ashes of Embers essentially does this with Universal weapons for all classes; universalizing weapons means everything can backstab. Alternatively, Ding0's Tweaks Pack includes an interesting alternative backstabbing from the_bigg (Improved Backstabbing), where you can backstab with pretty much everything but at a penalty for larger weapons, e.g. you can backstab with a bastard sword but at a -2 to your backstab multiplier.

 

 

[subtledoctor]

Item Revisions does it too - everything can backstab, but traditionally non-thief weapons don’t backstab as well as thief weapons. 

[RoyalProtector]

So out of curiosity, what exactly do they do to all weapons to allow them to backstab, if it's not making them available for all thieves?

[suy]

See the conversation that I quoted above ("I remove the thief flag, yes, but keep it unusable by thieves by adding the 319 effect").