First, I mean Second, try at a big(ish) EET install

[BCaesar]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:36 AM, Connelly said:

 I'm only barely surprised because I do remember the mod liking its player mistreatment and threats of them for taking certain (not even evil) choices.

That's actually one of the few things you don't have to install. Most of the player-mistreatment is I believe contained in the ForTheGood component.

[subtledoctor]

My current hotfix keeps it rather simple:

// add necklace of talos to mae'var
ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~maevar.cre~ BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~maevar.cre~ ~override~
    ADD_CRE_ITEM ~misc4y~ #1 #0 #0 ~IDENTIFIED~ ~INV~
END

Could as well do this to the priest of Cyric, but I wasn't totally certain that .CRE file isn't used elsewhere. And it doesn't really matter - as long as the thing drops after the Mae'Var fight, then the quest can be completed. Done and done.

Edited February 9, 2023 by subtledoctor

[BCaesar]

5 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

My current hotfix keeps it rather simple:

// add necklace of talos to mae'var
ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~maevar.cre~ BEGIN
  COPY_EXISTING ~maevar.cre~ ~override~
    ADD_CRE_ITEM ~misc4y~ #1 #0 #0 ~IDENTIFIED~ ~INV~
END

Could as well do this to the priest of Cyric, but I wasn't totally certain that .CRE file isn't used elsewhere. And it doesn't really matter - as long as the thing drops after the Mae'Var fight, then the quest can be completed. Done and done.

Awesome. That should fix it.

And I'm pretty sure you're correct. The Priest's name is used by other units that other mods add into the room. It's what tends to bug it out. I've coded for some of them before in previous bug fixes, but I'm sure I missed some. That's why I gave up on it on the latest update and from now on Mae'Var will just give the necklace (or statue) back.

Anyway, glad it's all worked out for you now.

Edited February 10, 2023 by BCaesar

[Connelly]

21 hours ago, BCaesar said:

They're not optional to install, they're optional in that you can turn them off in game.

For example, if you don't want to see Jaheira's in-game romance, with Wilson in the place of CharName, you can turn it off as a response after the first Gruuf, Woof, Growl.

I'm sorry, while that's a fair point and useful if you're replaying in the same installation but don't want to bother repeating it (I think everyone can decide for themselves if they want to repeat X piece of content or not after their first go at it), I meant that more in the sense of being able to identify what's incompatible with what (either code wise or thematically) and being able to mix and match and avoid any redundancies in similar content.

Contrast for example with the BG1 NPCs for SoA & ToB mod. All BG1 characters are introduced by their own separate components, so I can I can disable some them in favor of Jastey's and Kulyok's standalone mods. Now if I wanted your megamod and Skitia's Wings, then I would have two similar quests that amount to the same story beat but with probably different approaches to how they proceed and characterize Aerie, so one of them would be redundant. I can choose to not install Skitia's without further impact, but I cannot opt out from installing yours unless I opt out from the rest of the megamod as well.

Wouldn't be reasonable to allow users to not install what they don't require or want? And wouldn't make life easier for you, maintenance wise, to modularize as many bits of content as possible?

2 hours ago, BCaesar said:

That's actually one of the few things you don't have to install. Most of the player-mistreatment is I believe contained in the ForTheGood component.

Again, fair, because as I was mostly drawing for years old memory so I'm not clear right now about to what component belongs x small bit. That said, what soured the mod for me wasn't the optional "oh, you're evil actually, perish" bits , but the main Mazzy content. I remember leaving a comment back at the Beamdog thread with my biggest peeves, so I won't bore you here about it again (and for all I know might be outdated feedback by now).

Edited February 10, 2023 by Connelly

[jastey]

5 hours ago, BCaesar said:

The Priest's name is used by other units that other mods add into the room. It's what tends to bug it out.

Please elaborate.

[BCaesar]

18 hours ago, jastey said:

Please elaborate.

It was a few years so I don't remember it exactly, but there are mods that change what other people are in the room with Mae'Var. That particular priest has a script name that is used by a number of different bad guys (all thieves I think). I remember there was some bug we had to fix a while ago because we coded it assuming that the priest was the only person with that script in the room, and then for some reason when the people get changed and there's more people with the same script name in the room it bugs out.

I don't remember the details well enough to elaborate beyond that and I don't remember what I changed to fix it (though apparently not thoroughly enough), but now with Mae'Var just giving the necklace or statuette back to Player 1 it shouldn't matter.

[BCaesar]

22 hours ago, Connelly said:

Wouldn't be reasonable to allow users to not install what they don't require or want? And wouldn't make life easier for you, maintenance wise, to modularize as many bits of content as possible?

From a writing/coding perspective we liked to be able to add in whatever we wanted and tie the various parts of the mods together (for example allowing one of the NPC's we created to interject in dialogue that was part of other projects we coded), and when we were testing it meant we only had to test a limited number of options and never had to worry about using "if file exists" or other qualifiers. With one mod then when we test it we know that that's the only option. If we have fifteen different components then we have to test them in all the various possible configurations.

So on our side, having it mostly be one install (or really three different parts) made for fewer bugs and easier coding. It does make things less convenient for the player as you said, but still no regrets. I'm happy we did it the way we did.

22 hours ago, Connelly said:

 I can choose to not install Skitia's without further impact, but I cannot opt out from installing yours unless I opt out from the rest of the megamod as well.

Like most of the long multi-dialogue things on our end you can tell Aerie to stop talking and she will, though you do have a point in that there are other smaller interjections and dialogues that would still be in the mod.

22 hours ago, Connelly said:

Again, fair, because as I was mostly drawing for years old memory so I'm not clear right now about to what component belongs x small bit. That said, what soured the mod for me wasn't the optional "oh, you're evil actually, perish" bits , but the main Mazzy content. I remember leaving a comment back at the Beamdog thread with my biggest peeves, so I won't bore you here about it again (and for all I know might be outdated feedback by now).

We did re-write everything so the dialogue is of better quality, and we removed some of the lines that seemed to trigger people when we weren't intending them to (if people were going to hate part of our mod, we didn't want it to be an accident ). But odds are you'd probably still dislike it.

[subtledoctor]

Moving on…? Wow those were some intense segues! I’m not actually 100% clear where I left things. 

I had taken care of Galvarey, and when confronted by Reviane I declined to fight because RP>loot. This is usually where I boot Jaheira out of the party for putting me in such danger. But instead I booted Aerie. See, Yvette had popped out of her painting and I figure I would set her up as a mage/cleric of Sune. I don’t do romances in these games, mod or otherwise, I think they are all pretty cringe. But something tickles my fancy about the idea of Yvette - we’re playing a teenage young man who spent his whole life in a library raised by an old codger, then suddenly had some wild adventures in a magical world. What is actually a likely “romance” for him, having spent his teenage years among books? A girl in a piece of paper actually seems right. Is she real? Is she an imagined product of a fractured psyche - basically one of those pillows with a picture of an anime girl? Is she an imagined product of a fractured psyche made real by the magic if this world? What does that mean as far as her agency and whether this is a healthy relationship? Certainly it implies something a bit dark, or at least immature. Do we want someone who would indulge this relationship to grow up to become a god?

I don’t know if the mod actually gets into those issues. Maybe she’s a real person who was magically imprisoned, just a variation on Branwen being turned to stone. I won’t find out, because for whatever reason Yvette is not working with my Use Magical Device code. 

So instead I pick up Keto to replace Aerie as my arcane caster. We accompany Breagar to find the Axe of Berronar. There is a bunch of conversation that heavily implies Breagar has been traveling with me since day 1, rather than since Irenicus’ dungeon. He is not really a character you can pick up and start using at this late stage. Also I don’t like his kit. So once he has his axe back, he’s out. 

I pick up Kiyone, and decide to do Beyond the Law in this playthrough. We travel to the Windspear Hills, where we murderize Ajantis, find Kova, return the dryads’ tree seeds, and observe Garren Windspear’s daughter be abducted. We head into Firkragg’s dungeon to free her. 

And man, I have to pause and comment on how dense this dungeon is! So many encounters, so many enemies, so many different types, packed in such a small area! It’s shocking. It might be the pinnacle of Baldur’s Gate dungeon design. I wish it wasn’t just one level. But as it is, it completely exhausts my resources to get through it without resting. Except for the awkward geographical layout of the Conster fight (memories of Firewine) this is just <chef’s kiss>. 

EDIT - except I almost forgot: some mod makes 10+ otyughs spawn in melee range of the party as I am going up the steps to fight Conster. Like, what the hell? Otyughs are IMHO not designed for this. They are an enemy you try to keep your distance from. You encounter one in Chateau Irenicus, one in the Slums sewers, one in the De’Arnise Keep courtyard, I think three in SoD, and maybe also three under Balduran’s Sea Tower. Twelve of them, and spawning out of thin air, is just ridiculous. It seems really artificial to me. 

At any rate we return to Athkatla, talk to Inspector Brega, then go to the prison to talk to Inspector Dayven about Kova. We interrupt the angry mob trying to murder Viconia, and I’m slightly shocked that this game legit included an interactive scene of someone being lynched over the color of their skin? This really hasn’t aged well. At any rate I… pass on Viconia? Jaheira continues to stay in the party over other divine-caster options! What the hell? Is this run going to keep Jaheira the whole way?? I never do that! 

Now we nee to talk to Renal Bloodscalp, and he wants us to first take out Mae’Var. Also I want to follow up on that HerThiMoney quest. But Kova is a competent thief so Yoshimo and Keto leave the party and I head to the Copper Coronet to add Nalia and Auren. These are a good pair to have for the De’Arnise Keep quest, at least, and they fit in the party extremely well right now. 

But… now I’m stuck. Should Auren have the Cavalier kit, moved into the fighter class? This fits her characterization, and has handy abilities in poison/fear immunity and innate Remove Fear. Or should she have the Samurai- I mean, Weaponmaster kit, which has more flexible and interesting abilities via the ki pool mechanic?

And what about Nalia? As ever, there are so many possible ways to spec her out. I don’t need a thief so maybe cleric/mage? Or cleric->mage dual? Maybe Psionicist (thief/psion, closest thing to a single-class psion), or a bit more extreme, maybe Cerebremancer (psion/mage)? 

Edited February 11, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

EDIT - except I almost forgot: some mod makes twelve otyughs spawn in melee range of the party as I am going up the steps to fight Conster. Like, what the hell? Otyughs are IMHO not designed for this. They are an enemy you try to keep your distance from. You encounter one in Chateau Irenicus, one in the Slums sewers, one in the De’Arnise Keep courtyard, I think three in SoD, and maybe also three under Balduran’s Sea Tower. Twelve of them, and spawning out of thin air, is just ridiculous. It seems really artificial to me. 

Otyughs are also immune to missile damage, so sometimes you can't keep distance from them.

But in regards to spawning, I actually caused a ten-otyugh spawn in that dungeon with my own tweak mod's "bigger random spawns" component. The one otyugh in the pit past the troll cook is a spawn point generating one otyugh, which my component upgraded to a maximum of ten ... and because otyughs are a monster type that doesn't have a proper power level set, the full ten of those monsters would spawn. Oops. Of course, that pit is on the other side of the map; if you saw otyughs near the stairs and Conster, something else is definitely involved. Also, spawn points don't go off in melee range of the party; they trigger when the point is just a bit off-screen.

(When I faced the pit of ten otyughs in my "Dorn It" playthrough, I blasted the room with an Incendiary Cloud. They couldn't get away. No survivors.)

The latest version of my mod has seen an update to the component, which will no longer generate ridiculous stuff like that ten-otyugh spawn. Two at most, maybe three on higher difficulties in combination with the other spawn point component I added.

[subtledoctor]

The pit would be okay because there are choke points to use to manage it. My incident was weird: I went into Firkraag’s level, talked to the dragon, then Conster teleported out. I went to follow him back to the first level by the prison cells, and there in Firkraag’s level, right at the stairs, they spawned on top of me.

The way it played out, it seemed like something done intentionally to slow me down following Conster. 

But! I had skipped the otyugh pit on the 1st level. On reflection, it’s possible that they spawned in the otyugh pit, got aggro’d even though I didn’t see them, slowly advanced behind me as I fought my way to Firkraag, and only caught up when I finally reversed course. Would be quite a coincidence, but I’ve certainly seen odder things with BG mobs!

EDIT - also oddly, these otyughs were vulnerable to missile attacks, so it was manageable with summons + Web + missile fire. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

The otyughs can't follow you outside of the pit normally; they're too big for the doors. Unless the area-switching let them effectively teleport or something. Creatures which are targeting you can sometimes follow you to a new area regardless of distance or obstacles; I've seen this happen with the SCS Ust Natha fight.

And if they were vulnerable to missile attacks, the CRE was definitely modified. Every version of otyughs from both SoD and BG2EE share the same 100% missile resistance.

[subtledoctor]

Dammit, the scroll/wand usability problem is not limited to Yvette, Nalia can’t use them either. I’m guessing something related to the chapter change messed with people’s SPECIFIC values - I saw similar things before with the BG1-SoD transition… that’s been fixed for a long time, but maybe this is triggered by a different mod? I’ll take a look at a savegame and see, it should be easy to hotfix. But it’s frustrating, and I’m tired of dealing with it. I’m going to accelerate my plan to release new versions of the mods that no longer use that method. 

I’m also halfway through a new install. Boy, I’m tempted to abandon this and start a new BG2 campaign with all- new versions of these mods…

[Morgoth]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I’m also halfway through a new install. Boy, I’m tempted to abandon this and start a new BG2 campaign with all- new versions of these mods…

did you remove mods? Please, publish the weidu. 

[Graion Dilach]

He kept his current log in the first post.

[Morgoth]

22 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

He kept his current log in the first post.

Thanks.