"Mod": Remove HLAs from BG2

[Baptor]

A number of years ago this thread really piqued my interest. I found a solution to @Ballad 's problem* and I wanted to share that in case they (or anyone) wanted it.

Frankly, I despise HLAs and much prefer IWD's approach of letting you get high level without them. I could explain why I hate them but that's not really the scope of this post.

I reached out to the ever generous (and genius) @argent77 who graciously pointed me to the lunumab.2da file which controls HLAs and suggested setting the level requirements to 99. It was very simple to edit in Near Infinity. You can go in there and set HLAs to start at any level you like - lower or higher. I set them all to 99 which basically removes them from the game*.

For those who are interested in removing HLAs but not inclined to use NI, I have included the 2da file. All you have to do is drop it into your override. Enjoy!

*The caveat here is that it only removes them from the player's side. I do not play with SCS but my understanding is that many enemies use HLAs in that mod so if you put in my fix only your characters will not gain HLAs. The bad guys would still have them. Additionally, characters you have that already have HLAs will keep the ones they already have - they just won't gain more.

No_HLAs.zip

[Endarire]

Not my style, but thankee for sharing!  I also like your Bible quote in your signature!  Thankee!  Alleluia!

[Bartimaeus]

You know, I've never really liked HLAs either, especially with the absolute ridiculous glut of different spells and abilities you have by the time you get to ToB (not that I have...uh, you know, finished ToB in practically forever). Maybe disabling them would actually be the best choice in reducing the amount of crap you have to manage. Plus, I think if you play with SCS, you can disable HLAs for all of them as well via the modular difficulty management ability.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Endarire]

May we get this mod posted on GitHub for posterity?

Thankee!

[Baptor]

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

You know, I've never really liked HLAs either, especially with the absolute ridiculous glut of different spells and abilities you have by the time you get to ToB (not that I have...uh, you know, finished ToB in practically forever). Maybe disabling them would actually be the best choice in reducing the amount of crap you have to manage. Plus, I think if you play with SCS, you can disable HLAs for all of them as well via the modular difficulty management ability.

 

I couldn't agree more. It's just too much. Playing IWD at high levels and seeing how freeing it was to play without them was my inspiration to do this.

8 hours ago, Endarire said:

May we get this mod posted on GitHub for posterity?

Thankee!

First, thank you for your encouragement! Second, I have never used GitHub and am unsure what I should do to put that up there for you all. Is there some specific place we put mods? I am sorry if I sound terribly ignorant I really don't know anything about it.

[jmerry]

If you're not on GitHub, don't worry about it. Especially for something as small (and non-WeiDU) as this. Besides, that line is basically spam; Endarire posts that in response to everyone who puts something up.

[polytope]

I agree with most of Ballad's comment on the old thread (except that UAI is arguably one of the more imbalancing):

Quote

Sure, there are some neat, well thought out HLA's, such as the extra spell slots, Alchemy, Scribe Scrolls and even Use Any Item. These abilities have a lot of utilitarian value and are powerful in their own right, but not game breakingly so. But then there is stuff like Greater Whirlwind, Critical Strike, Assassination and Time and Spike Trap. And let's not even get started on the level 10 wizard spells - ESPECIALLY "Summon Planetar/Dark Planetar."

Or actually, scratch that and let me rant some about Planetars. These creatures are obscenely, gamebreakingly overpowered. I'm running SCS and I'm not sure if that makes them even cheesier, but whenever either party in a fight summons one, the fight is basically over for the other side. A lot of times, the Planetar is actually more powerful than the wizard summoning it. When confronting the Twisted Rune in Chapter 6, I managed to take out Shangalar and co quite easily but still lost the fight due to the Fallen Planetar the old bag of bones summoned before snuffing it. Globe of Blades, PfMW, Improved Haste, [just a note that planetars have permanent haste rather than the *improved* version and the equivalent of permanent mantle rather than PfMW - Ed] instacast Heals and godlike combat abilities all in one summoning spell? Whoever came up with that and thought it fit well with the rest of the game? Honestly, when I discovered it is also immune to death spell contrary to being a summoned creature, I wasn't even that surprised anymore.

Overall, the worst part about Planetars and other HLA's is that they make most other spells and abilities seem second rate in comparison. Why bother casting improved Haste when you can just slam Greater Whirlwind all day long? Why bother using a spellcasting strategy other than Time Stop -> Improved Alacrity when it's all you need to win 9 fights out of 10? And, why, oh why would I bother summoning any other creature again once I have access to Planetars? It is almost as if some Bioware developer looked at the wonderfully complex, intricately balanced system of spells and abilities that was SoA and thought, that's too many spells, let's have like, 9.

It looks like Beamdog took his advice and nerfed planetars by giving them 48 hp/round regeneration on top of all their other perks.

Unfortunately mods that touch the HLA system (like Refinements) generally add new HLAs of comparable power (or attempt to, most Refinement HLAs are weak in practice, but on the upside they did nerf UAI to use of scrolls only), treating the vanilla game as a benchmark. Rogue Rebalancing does replace the outrageous Time Traps with Acid Traps, but adds some other very strong HLAs especially for bards.

HLAs are used not only in SCS but by some vanilla enemies and especially Ascension enemies, so we can't easily imagine the late game completely without, instead modders generally try to increase the power of enemies encountered at high level to match, the trouble here is that a solo character will unlock HLAs very early in the saga, around when a party of 6 would be about 10th level (dependent ofc on how much of the xp you gained was quest xp, many quests give raw xp as for slaying monsters/learning spells/solving locks and traps though).

Edited March 4, 2023 by polytope

[Endarire]

@polytope
Not spam, but a common request.

I made GitHub tutorials here with this being a likely starting spot.  Enjoy!

[subtledoctor]

Some points of reference:

Planetars become a lot more reasonable when you take their ridiculous vorpal swords away. In my last game I modded them to be "noble genies" by simply 1) changing their animation from celestials to djinni/efreeti, and 2) replacing their swords with a sword that does electric/fire damage (respectively). And for whatever reason, my mod loadout was suppressing their regeneration (as it was suppressed by design IMHO). These very small changes made them a lot squishier against big bads like dragons and liches.

Neither here nor there but a long time ago when I played with aTweaks fiends, I gated in a pit fiend at the Twisted Rune and it basically destroyed their entire team.

In my ToB game last year... I honestly don't think I used Improved Alacrity once. Just never thought to, whenever I was in a fight my mind just went immediately to what spells I wanted to cast at any given moment. I never needed to go nova to that extent. (Though admittedly I gave up on the run just before the Ascension "Final Five" battle.) I don't think I used any thief HLAs. Honestly I didn't use many HLAs at all - I set my HLAs to be available at level 20 regardless or multiclassing, and my XP table doesn't get you to level 20 until close to 4 million XP. I think I reached the end battle with my single-class characters at level 24 (4 HLAs each) and multiclass characters at about level 18/18 (no HLAs at all). It was kind of fun to dip my toes into the HLA waters, but I could pretty easily have done without them.

So yeah this should all be read as supporting the idea of this thread.

I wouldn't worry about putting this on Github. If anything, this should be an alternative subcomponent in Tweaks Anthology (bother @CamDawg) next to its existing component that delays HLAs.

Thinking more broadly about it... IWD without HLAs is nice, but at the same time I do like the idea that most spells, and class and kit abilities, would stop improving after 20th level. AD&D was really designed as a game from levels 1 to 20. The concept of HLAs as something you get instead of continued advancement is not bad in principle. It should just be toned way down from the Bioware implementation. Some high-level bonuses for druids/thieves/bards is a nice idea and a way to throw them a bone as they are adventuring with wizards throwing around meteor swarm and wail of the banshee etc. Transforming into an elemental is cool! Thieves shooting fireballs out of wands is cool. Clerics getting some direct divine assistance is cool. Mages summoning planetars and ignoring the casting limit is not cool. (Also should not be possible, Mystra explicitly banned 10th-level magic.) It would be interesting to do a radical redesign of the HLA system, going further than Refinements and making them into smaller, more interesting bonuses.

[Baptor]

There are lots of cool ways to "fix" HLAs (if you think they have problems which it seems most of us do), this is just one way. I agree that I wish the game maxed at 20th level and was balanced around that idea. That would be ideal.

If @CamDawg wants to add my little file to the Tweaks Anthology, I would be thrilled to see it there. Having used Tweaks since forever, I'd be honored to make some small contribution to its ever growing list of features.

[polytope]

@Endarire I didn't yet tag you in this thread, that was jmerry, even though their avatar is a polytope. But yes, there is no advantage to hosting this mod on GitHub, that would be for complex mods like SCS where the version tree is important to find the last stable/compatible release, not for an overwrite of a single 2DA file. Besides, pointlessly inflating the number of BG2 related GitHub repositories makes it harder for searchers to find relevant ones.

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Planetars become a lot more reasonable when you take their ridiculous vorpal swords away. In my last game I modded them to be "noble genies" by simply 1) changing their animation from celestials to djinni/efreeti, and 2) replacing their swords with a sword that does electric/fire damage (respectively). And for whatever reason, my mod loadout was suppressing their regeneration (as it was suppressed by design IMHO). These very small changes made them a lot squishier against big bads like dragons and liches.

The vorpal weapon isn't the real problem. Unmodded, their regeneration rate, fast casting heals and weapon immunities together make them simply unbeatable by a large fraction of the creatures encountered, it's likely to take more than one round for even a very powerful boss type to take one down upon which the wizard can just summon another (unless you've got the SCS component to make celestial summons once per day innates, which is an improvement although making wizard HLAs into innates is generally overpowering as it means the player no longer has to decide between 9th level spells and HLAs).

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Honestly I didn't use many HLAs at all - I set my HLAs to be available at level 20 regardless or multiclassing, and my XP table doesn't get you to level 20 until close to 4 million XP. I think I reached the end battle with my single-class characters at level 24 (4 HLAs each) and multiclass characters at about level 18/18 (no HLAs at all). It was kind of fun to dip my toes into the HLA waters, but I could pretty easily have done without them.

Solo, or in a duo, trio or even quartet it would be more obvious even with the crucial level requirement (except for multiclasses, but that simply disadvantages the player who chooses multi!) and the XP table revision, bear in mind that most players have the original game default of neither. 3M xp earned unlocks HLAs for them.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, polytope said:

Solo, or in a duo, trio or even quartet it would be more obvious even with the crucial level requirement (except for multiclasses, but that simply disadvantages the player who chooses multi!) and the XP table revision, bear in mind that most players have the original game default of neither. 3M xp earned unlocks HLAs for them

Yes. My point was, i applied changes that resulted in far fewer HLAs in my game, and I did not really miss them. It was fine. Those changes were in the direction of that being talked about here, so they lend support to this mod being a potentially enjoyable way to play.

1 hour ago, polytope said:

The vorpal weapon isn't the real problem. Unmodded, their regeneration rate, fast casting heals and weapon immunities together make them simply unbeatable

The regeneration is a bug (or, most charitably, an oversight) so I'm not counting that, and indeed in my game they did not regenerate. And weapon immunity is meaningless against bosses, and bosses are the only enemies I would use an HLA summon against. With no renegeration and no auto-dispelling vorpal sword, enemies like e.g. Saladrex squashed my planetar in short order. It wasn't a bad summon, but much less unbalanced.

[polytope]

I will say that while spellcasters may not need HLAs, warrior types do because otherwise the player has a boring advancement in the later stages (saving throws stop improving at lvl 17, THAC0 at 21), so just 3hp/level and one new proficiency every third level. Thieves need something too (just not Time Traps).

The expanded spell progression table beyond level 20 from the Complete Wizard's Handbook might be enough for mages (class level vertical axis, spell level horizontal, if it wasn't obvious).

	1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9

21      5   5   5   5   5   4   4   4   2
22      5   5   5   5   5   5   4   4   3
23      5   5   5   5   5   5   5   5   3
24      5   5   5   5   5   5   5   5   4
25      5   5   5   5   5   5   5   5   5
26      6   6   6   6   5   5   5   5   5
27      6   6   6   6   6   6   6   5   5
28      6   6   6   6   6   6   6   6   6
29      7   7   7   7   6   6   6   6   6
30      7   7   7   7   7   7   7   6   6
31      8   8   8   8   7   7   7   6   6
32      8   8   8   8   7   7   7   7   7

It still has the problem of enemy mages falling behind in firepower, and being scripted to use HLAs anyway, although those could be retconned (from the modder's perspective largely just reskinned but tweaked a bit too) as the results of Wish spells. There's also the issue of how to expand the tables appropriately for sorcerers and bards (there is a table for bards in the High Level campaigns book, but that also includes a different table for high level wizards, further confusing things), lastly, priests already have a glut of high level spells, so giving them more is redundant, then again Quest level spells for arch priests are canonical in AD&D, and druids are supposed to have their own particular abilities upon becoming a Grand Druid, then a Hierophant.

Edited March 4, 2023 by polytope

[polytope]

I've been thinking more about this. Since (some) enemy fighter and thieves are scripted to use HLAs even without SCS, opponent HLA usage could be simulated with special and rare potions with warrior/rogue usability and a chance (10 to 25% depending on the HLA being replaced) to drop a dose of such potion (game mechanic wise, added to the inventory when their scripted HLA occurs).

• Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind -> Potion of Celerity, duplicates Improved Haste for 6 rounds
• Power Attack/Critical Strike/Smite -> Potion of Might (would be power if not already in game) giving +3 to hit +5 to damage + 20 temp hp for 1 turn.
• Assassination -> Potion of Improved Invisibility (or Elixir of the Spectre if that's a better name)
• Avoid Death/Greater Evasion -> Potion of Magic Shielding (exactly as in game)
• Hardiness -> Potion of Imperviousness

Improved Alacrity is the difficult one to fake, because if a mage is scripted to use it it's almost certainly for a good reason, there could be a Potion of Speedcasting added but probably no more than a 10% chance of an extra being found on any mage who uses it. Other mage HLAs can be (as I said) Wish spell effects or rod charges (one of Comet or Dragon's Breath should be).

If fighters aren't to get HLAs I'm thinking their THAC0 and save progression should be revised.

THAC0 would progress normally to level 14 (7) then 1 point per 3 levels, so 17(6), 20(5), 23(4), 26(3), 29(2), 32(1), 35(0)

Saves, across the board, would progress toward 3 at a rate of a single category improving 1 point every 2 levels. I.e.

L17-18: 3/5/4/4/6

L19-20: 3/5/4/4/5

L21-22: 3/4/4/4/5

L23-24: 3/4/4/4/4

L25-26: 3/3/4/4/4

L27-28: 3/3/3/4/4

L29-30: 3/3/3/3/4

L31-40: 3/3/3/3/3

This way the fighter has some improvement to look forward to at higher levels without HLA stuff. Monks do keep improving above 20th level "naturally" as it is, but should probably follow the fighter THAC0 curve.

 I think this might appeal to purists, but most players obviously prefer the existence of HLAs, debating whether it's worth making it into a mod considering the new item graphics will take time to produce.

Edited July 30, 2023 by polytope

[InKal]

HLAs is not to make game more cheesy or something but rather for making leveling fun again. Highest effective level is lvl 20 (fighter stops gaining THACO after level 20, etc.). If you first installing something like remove level cap and then you want to remove HLAs then I am not sure that you actually know what you are doing. HLA is actually pretty good concept but I understand when someone wnats to change something, improve or replace some HLA like giving actually good HLAs to bards is amazing Avenger's idea and execution and if you want to just remove them just like that because you are somewhat angry about HLAs fuck knows why? sry champ you are kinda stupid imo. 

What is actually cheesy is multi class hlas, double or even triple HLAs which means HLA every level for every class. Ideally multi class should gain HLA every two levels and triple class every three levels to make their HLAs number the same as single class. but that is pretty sure impossible to do because engine limitation or something and for example Improved Anvil circumvent this (tahts the word? circuumvent?) by removing the strongest HLAs from multi classes, which is really NOT FUN at all. Do not remove HLAs but rather make them great again like Avenger.

 

In modern games (one game actually) HLA equvivalent is mythic system in Pathfinder:WOTR. Mythic system is imo pretty much HLAs for new era RPGs.