SubtleMods: SubtleD's Stat Overhauls (Stats of Balance?)

[subtledoctor]

16 hours ago, Thacobell said:

AionZ likes to do the occasional kit that has some extra abilities, and trade those off with reduced stats. Is it possible stat overhaul is tweaking something so that a class minimum is clashing with a lowered stat maximum somewhere?

Hmmm… I wouldn’t think that would cause a crash. And this mod just applies a repeating contingency with subspells based on stat scores - that shouldn’t interfere with a kit’s abilities. 

The only thing that scratches a spot in my brain is, isn’t there something with Tweaks or somewhere, that lets you create dwarven paladins - and since dwarves get -2 CHA and paladins need 17 CHA, it would crash the game? I think my mod actually changes paladins’ minimum CHA to ~16 for that reason. I think? (EDIT - fixed the dwarf numbers.)

So maybe it’s something like, AionZ’s kit has unusual stat requirements or adjustments, which conflict with this mods requirements or adjustments? Something like that?

Were you min/maxing? IIRC this sets minimum stats to 5, so if you set a stat to 5 and his kit lowers it… hm, even then, I don’t think it would cause a crash. 

I’m perplexed. But if I had to guess I suppose it is probably related to class minimum/maximum stats. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Thacobell]

The kit has lower maximums on a couple stats, but not minimums. Off the top of my head, I can't think of what would conflict here. Its specifically the stat overhaul component as well, it runs with everything else. The whole situation is bizarre.

[jmerry]

FYI, that particular (druid) kit has a -3 charisma penalty. And if I'm reading it right, no charisma minimum, unlike baseline druids.

[subtledoctor]

28 minutes ago, jmerry said:

FYI, that particular (druid) kit has a -3 charisma penalty. And if I'm reading it right, no charisma minimum, unlike baseline druids.

So it’s possible the kit is knocking your CHA below the base class minimum? Except, I don’t think an adjustment applied by kit effect would cause a crash, as it would occur after you class choice and stat roll. EDIT - unless he applies his adjustment in a different way. Which, know those mods, is entirely possible.

The good thing is 1) it might be your particular character - roll different stats or move some points around, and you might avoid the crash. And 2) these minimums are generally controlled by human .2da text files, so you may be able to cure the situation without uninstalling/reinstalling any mods. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

... Correction. It's a -3 Charisma penalty, applied in the standard way (the ADD_KIT_EX application has a nontrivial abclsmod parameter). But the class minimums are not changed; that entry is commented out. So if the baseline druid table is still standard, that's a class minimum of 15. Minimum 15, effective maximum 15 due to the penalty. It'll definitely break if you try to make one with a race that has a charisma penalty.

With the stat overhauls, dwarves and half-orcs have charisma penalties, while half-elves and halflings have charisma bonuses. Dwarves and half-orcs can't normally be druids, but who knows with a mod setup like this? And the kit doesn't have any racial restrictions beyond the base class's restrictions.

[Thacobell]

Interesting. Will re-install that component and see if raising CHA fixes the issue.

[Lurker]

19 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

isn’t there something with Tweaks or somewhere, that lets you create dwarven paladins - and since dwarves get -1 CHA and paladins need 18 CHA, it would crash the game?

Paladins have a minimum of 17 CHA in the base game. Don't want Ajantis to crash the game.

EDIT: This was meant to be a small correction on the one hand, and a small joke about Paladins, being considered "party crashers" by some people, on the other hand. Guess the second part is a failure, if it needs this explanation.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Lurker

[Thacobell]

Okay, I think its definitely the CHA min having wonky interactivity with using a race that gets CHA penalties. I was assuming that the game would hard cap minimum attributes despite any penalties. But I guess its not happening for mod kits? Choosing a race without CHA penalties allows me to pick the class.

[subtledoctor]

So just edit ABCLASRQ.2da, find the row for the Hivemaster, and in the MIN_CHR column change the value to 3 lower than whatever it is. (I assume it is 15, so set it to 12.) Problem should be solved.

[polytope]

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

The only thing that scratches a spot in my brain is, isn’t there something with Tweaks or somewhere, that lets you create dwarven paladins - and since dwarves get -1 CHA and paladins need 18 CHA, it would crash the game? I think my mod actually changes paladins’ minimum CHA to ~16 for that reason. I think?

Dwarves by default have a max rolled CHA of 17 and a further -1 penalty (2DA files ABRACERQ and ABRACEAD respectively), which leaves them ineligible for the paladins min of 17 (if a mod allows choosing new classes for demihumans anyway).

It's an old bug for certain race/kit combos.

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Paladins have a minimum of 17 CHA in the base game. Don't want Ajantis to crash the game.

Only matters in character creation screen when the game gets stuck in an endless loop trying to fulfill contradictory requirements of a minimum roll that's higher than the maximum allowable, when actually playing the game there are no further checks except maybe in dialogues and quite a few NPCs don't have stats that match their class.

[jmerry]

4 hours ago, polytope said:

Dwarves by default have a max rolled CHA of 17 and a further -1 penalty (2DA files ABRACERQ and ABRACEAD respectively)...

What nonsense is this? There is never a maximum imposed on the 3d6 roll, at least in the EE. Every entry in the "MAX_***" columns of ABRACERQ is 18. Dwarves (without any mods) have a -2 penalty in ABRACEAD, which is why they have that 16 max charisma.

(Note that the minima in ABRACERQ are calculated before the adjustments of ABRACEAD. An elf's MIN_CON number of 7 becomes 6 after the racial -1 CON is applied.)

[polytope]

16 hours ago, jmerry said:

There is never a maximum imposed on the 3d6 roll, at least in the EE. Every entry in the "MAX_***" columns of ABRACERQ is 18. Dwarves (without any mods) have a -2 penalty in ABRACEAD, which is why they have that 16 max charisma.

Yes, that's another difference between EE and classic, it amounts to the same thing though (Cha no higher than 16, and game frozen if you try to make one a paladin).

I wasn't aware they'd changed these two files and don't see why anyone bothered to, it works out the same and is the source of the same bug in certain class/kit/race combos.

Edited November 1, 2023 by polytope

[Graion Dilach]

My guess would be RNG bias. I'd presume that imposing a maximum on the roll would round up values outside it to into it than to reroll the dice.

[polytope]

3 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

My guess would be RNG bias. I'd presume that imposing a maximum on the roll would round up values outside it to into it than to reroll the dice.

Now that I think about it, in pre-EE games rolling for a dwarf only the one in every 216 (or thereabouts, since RNG it isn't actually a fair 3d6) that has a natural 18 gets it either reduced to 17 or rerolled (however the engine does it).

So 3-18 with a subsequent -2 penalty indeed puts usual charisma score for dwarves lower than 3-17 minus 1, even though the maximum is the same the midpoint of the bell curve isn't. Since dwarves were among the best races to pick for almost any fighter class/multiclass I guess it's fine to enforce their stat penalties a bit more rigidly.

[Velasquez]

 

I noticed a bug with the extra proficiencies for high INT but it might be a mod conflict on my part.The "spell" appears again after rest allowing limitless selections.
You have a really impressive series of mods.