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Haer'Dalis and Anomen - conflict?


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The ? - *sigh* I suppose it's because English is not my first language and when I'm too exited with the discussion, I start to butcher the phrases. I hope anybody who suspected I'm rude will excuse me, I'm actually a non-conflict old noldor. :)


neriana - yep, I meant the Edwin-Romance MOD. As a translator I've studied the texts quite well. Eddie had an impolite but cute habbit to interfere in PC-Anomen talks with poisonous comments. Though Anomen did the same. They rarely talked directly to each other. And here the PC had a choise, as Anomen didn't look o'ermuch stupid or something. Still I think t'is not much important, because if the PC wants to choose Anomen, installing the MOD is already out of question.


Kish - I don't know at all about Ano's alignment, I personally always see him in pretty dead condition, but in the romance Eddie proved to everybody that his Int is 18 after all. Their talks were not "ni-i-ice" at all, but I personally find them enough fun. And as Dalis never liked Anomen, I think he could have fun mocking him even more.


And I agree with BigRob that philosophical debate is a great idea - chaos on one side, Orden and order on other. By the way, here we can have Keldorn interfere, but I'm not sure what he can say as he also didn't always agree with Anomen. Though it's logical, what the PC will prefer, for order lovers the Keldorn-Romance will be available soon. :love: By the way, what Anomen and Dalis will talk about if the cleric already failed his test, or he did it in SoA and now they're in ToB?


*giggle* no-no-no, Ano is not an idiot, nor bastard - look at Kelsey and compare (blast my quriosity that made me read his texts!). :)

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Yeah, Edwin romance was really good and brought me much fun :)


I would like to see Haer'Dalis' disturbs LT's of cleric, but only when they won't be just rude. There is need for a bit of humour, but I don't think It could be any problem for JPS, right? ^^


And I have no objections to make a *little* (not complete!) jerk of Anomen, I really don't like his ovepraises. He's such annoying! :love:

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for order lovers the Keldorn-Romance will be available soon. :)

As an order-lover, the thought of romancing a married man, a paladin no less, makes me kind of ill. For the record, I can't stand Anomen though. And I like Kelsey.


I don't see Anomen and Haer'Dalis engaging in philosophical debate. Haer'Dalis might try to, since he's pretty open to just about everyone, even those for whom he has no respect. But Anomen isn't big on philosophical debate, just bluster, and I can't see Haer'Dalis bothering to listen to that.

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T'is OK, Neriana, Keldorn is going to divorse. :) And the romance, as I know that, is not bad at all. But too righteous for my liking.

Ew, Kelsey. I really hate the guy, BUT (!) I didn't know that you like him and ment no offence.

Nope, Dalis don't need to LISTEN to Anomen (he anyways never does and Ano is not too witty to actually say something of value), but he can start the dialog and listen to himself. :love: And he can't be rude - just not his style.

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DISCLAIMER: The text below is my personal opinion and I do not presume to impose it onto anyone. In fact, I believe that most people would disagree with me, but I always wanted to write it down in a concise manner.


The romance conflicts for me are the least likable part of every romance - including BioWARE’s. I feel that this is an ultimate test of how tasteful a romance is, and what its goals are. Anomen’s romantic conflict is imo a right of passage for every one of so many romance writers who want to create a new romance for a female PC.


The trend I noticed in every discussion that arises about the romance conflicts - I have only played Kelsey’s and saw some previews for Chloe’s long ago - is that the numerous users prompt the writer to dish out some unpleasant punishment upon Anomen, and make it ‘his own fault’, making the new dashing and witty character a triumphant winner and a hero in not-so-shiny armor. Because shiny armor generally rates low in popularity among the BG players, and is associated with stuffiness, boredom, stiff morals and self-righteousness.


Setting aside the highly controversial topic of the shiny armor's and Anomen’s charms, the important issues in my view is that we do not have a blueprint for Anomen’s behavior in a romantic conflict. BioWARE surprised - at least me - with the way the female characters act in the romantic conflict. So, I am starting to doubt the thesis that the author of a romance should take the most unpleasant treats of Anomen’s character and exaggerate them in the conflict turning him into a bully that gets what he deserved all along.


Firstly, I consider such an approach unpleasant - I for one would elect not taking Anomen in the party rather than seeing someone -even Anomen, for whom I do not have any warm fuzzy feelings - humiliated.


Secondly, I consider such an approach boring, because it does not give me any new information about the characters, neither about Anomen, nor about the new Lancelot. Anomen is an ass is an ass is an ass are old news, really. Could it just be that there are more to him? Yes, BIO’s treatment of the females was unpleasant, but at least it showed us an unexpected side of them. In Anomen’s case, there are plenty to build a case for a completely unexpected romantic reaction. He has insecurities (an understatement), and he subscribes to the ideals of the traditional chivalry. In view of this, I would not see it as impossible that Anomen would actually withdraw his advances if PC openly favors; if Anomen tries to show his courting abilities in competition to his advantage, rather than insulting the rival to his disadvantage, etc.


Thirdly, I find such an approach repetitive. It had been used already and more than once. The Lancelots all come out as witty and clever and great warriors. Don’t Lancelots have flaws? Again, I might be alone here, but I honestly don’t see anything wrong with romancing the person who seemingly lost out to the rival. I don’t mind when my Lancelot makes a fool out of himself. One of the most endearing scenes I have ever written myself was when Coran acted like a smart ass with Durlyle and got what he deserved for that from Dur.


Fourthly, I am very uneasy about the romantic conflict that leads to the death of one of the participants. In all honesty, killing a suitor that would be the shortest way to fall out of grace with my PCs. There are meta gaming reasons for that - I was building this party for a reason. There are sentimental reasons as well - this man did select my PC as a subject of his romantic aspirations. Well, he has a good taste to say the least and a claim on the PC’s friendship.


Fifthly, I feel that is unfair. I have no problems with grilling Anomen over his comment on sterilizing gnomes. I do not understand why he should be punished for falling in love with PC. In my books that is not a crime.


In summary, I trust that hat the more thought, the more care goes into the romantic conflict, the more character development each of the participants receive, the least spontaneously violent they are, the more surprising revelations it affords the player, the better the conflict is. But in the end, I prefer the Cross-mod pack way. When one man’s romance becomes committed, the others are shut down. I am the most comfortable that way, and feel less of a bitch in heat being contested over by two horny males. Howevere, I have to acknowledge that my preferences are the result of knowing very well just whom I would like to romance in BG, and I doubt that anything ever presented by BioWARE or the modding community is going to move me from that.

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I actually like the idea of the romance conflicts, although as Domi said they do need to be handled carefully and in a way that is in character.

I can also see Anomen and Haer'Dalis having a number of discussions regardless of romancing the PC. On one hand we have a character, Haer'Dalis, that I would say enjoys conflict and verbal jousting. On the other hand we have a character, Anomen, that is struggling with inner conflict. Sometimes I can't help but think that his blunt expression of strong opinions is a result of his insecurity. I can see the potential for the bard to sense this in Anomen and start pushing his buttons to see what happens.

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Certainly it's easy to take Anomen's bad side and blow it out to encompass everything he does, but I think Domi's right in that that makes for a not so interesting romantic conflict.


Anomen does flare and fade in his worse moments, so it's entirely possible that he might do/say something bad to Haer'Dalis, then apologise later after he's cooled down, much as he does with CHARNAME, which may lead to more talk, perhaps on some neutral ground. Unfortunately, I don't think Bioware has left much in the way of a starter for this, as the two seemed fairly antagonistic in my memory. The trick will be finding a way the two can connect.


Perhaps as rivals for CHARNAME they may find that common ground. Haer'Dalis certainly does not object too strongly to CHARNAME courting Aerie and the two styles they use (Bardic vs. Courtly) share similar approaches.

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Anomen does flare and fade in his worse moments, so it's entirely possible that he might do/say something bad to Haer'Dalis, then apologise later after he's cooled down, much as he does with CHARNAME, which may lead to more talk, perhaps on some neutral ground.

Yes this was exactly what I was thinking. And you're right in what I remember that the bioware banters between them were quite mean and snappy. With Haer'Dalis at times bordering on making fun of the Cleric. I also think that the struggle Anomen goes through, particularly in the desire for violence and revenge would prove quite interesting to the bard.

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The other possibility that I can see is that Haer'Dalis is a lover of chaos, so he can be academically interested in how chaos affects lawful Anomen and actually encouraging his advances while he himself is going after PC, making lies etc. It all could feel for him like a wonderful play, a comedy of errors or a trickster's play etc. In fact he could easily make fools from both PC and Anomen.

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Haer'Dalis certainly does not object too strongly to CHARNAME courting Aerie

Erm, well, actually, he butters CHARNAME up before asking him to step aside and, if he refuses, insults him and challenges him to a duel. That sounds like strong objections to me.

Actually, it sounds like a play to me. Not strong objections to the PC per se, but HD is acting out the role of the lover battling over his lady fair. I think he's glad he gets to do that. For Haer'Dalis, drama goes to the very core of his being.


What I would find interesting is for the PC to get a choice to break up with Haer'Dalis, say, in Throne of Bhaal, and go with someone a bit more down-to-earth. Like Valygar, because unfortunately Anomen isn't... though if someone wanted to rewrite Anomen nearly wholesale I would not object so long as the author admitted that's what s/he was doing. Haer'Dalis would be an incredible first love, but I have a serious problem imagining him staying with any one person for long. He's just not the nesting type.


Don’t Lancelots have flaws?

Besides sleeping with their best friends' wives? :) Actually, in every Arthurian-based thing I've ever read except for The Lady of Shalott, Lancelot has struck me as a thoroughly unpleasant person.

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Haer'Dalis certainly does not object too strongly to CHARNAME courting Aerie

Erm, well, actually, he butters CHARNAME up before asking him to step aside and, if he refuses, insults him and challenges him to a duel. That sounds like strong objections to me.


True and I should have mentioned that, but the step-aside or duel comes at "crunch time". What I meant was that prior to that, he doesn't make any of the sniping type attacks that the other Bioware conflicts do, so he doesn't seem to be worried about a rival, at least until it looks like he might lose (or as Neriana said, he finds a really dramatic moment to make a challenge).

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I think the Incredible First Love is not what the PC would want to leave for some... thing especially like Valygar. Mayhap, if somebody would want such thing, it will be Dalis to leave the girl he's already tired of (if he's so inconstant and changeable). :):love:

I meself'd prefer the romance be "over-romantic" like any other NPC's rather then "realistic" (what is "reality" after all? Bioware didn't leave an encyclopaedia about Dalis' character in details).

"And they were never parted, lived happily for 10 centuries in love and wealth, traveled all across the Realms and had 15 children" - awww, yesss, that's for me. :)

Otherwise t'is not fair - dearest Aerie has a child, gets her wings back and marries the PC to live happily ever after, Jaheira is allright too (don't remember about Anomen) and what have we? Go bury Cernd, buy Edwina a new dress and then sit waiting for a new "misunderstanding" in hope that it will be an opportunity to see Dalis once again? :O

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