Thees and thous

[Miloch]

I audited Dynaheir's dialogue because I complained about it a while ago. It turns out the vanilla game is where most of the inconsistency is, so I stuffed all those glitches in the BG1 Fixpack forum. BG1NPC had much better writers... I only went through her main dialogue file and only found a few minor things. My strings have the > in front. Maybe I'll go through the whole romance someday too (though I don't expect to find much to rant about, given the low number in this file) .

X#DYNAH.tra
@2	= ~I still walk my native land, Dynaheir. Rashemen is far farther from here than Candlekeep. Say, where is it, by the way?~
> ~I still walk my native land, Dynaheir. Rashemen is much further from here than Candlekeep. Say, where is it, by the way?~

@28   = ~Neither time nor habit changeth folly into wisdom. I reckon that thy Candlekeep robs itself of much commerce in that way.~
> ~Neither time nor habit changeth folly into wisdom. I reckon that thy Candlekeep doth rob itself of much commerce in that way.~

@159  = ~I foresee an early demise for thee, druid, if thou persist in thy destructive ways.~
> ~I foresee an early demise for thee, druid, if thou dost persist in thy destructive ways.~

@223  = ~Firstly, thy name puzzles me. It doth not sound akin to the elven names I have heard afore meeting with thee. Those wert quite a mouthful.~
>@223  = ~Firstly, thy name puzzles me. It doth not sound akin to the elven names I have heard afore meeting with thee. Those were quite a mouthful.~

@260  = ~Puzzle this out: how many Thayvian women doth it take to pour out a glass of water?~
> ~Puzzle this out: how many Thayan women doth it take to pour out a glass of water?~

@262  = ~None. A Thayvian woman will make a man to do it for her.~
> ~None. A Thayan woman will make a man to do it for her.~

@336  = ~But surely thou noticed the custom of the land?~
> ~But surely thou didst notice the custom of the land?~

[Domi]

Let's avoid using complex verbal forms ie 'doth rob' or 'didst notice'. Her language is bastardized, is evolving and it is simpler to read it if the verbs are left alone except for the 'have to have' ones ie does and to be and a few "th" endings.

 

The complex verb forms were not in the initial guideline we all used for Dynaheir's speech so they will be omitted everywhere. Putting them in some places, while omitting in others will create more inconsistency.

[berelinde]

Miloch, you mean well, but you need to get someone who actually knows archaic English constructions to have a look at these. I had a go at the ones in the other thread, but I don't have time to look at this one now. Lunch break is short.

[Domi]

Dynaheir's speech is *not* arcahic English. It is stylized, and is a blend of some old forms for flavour as done by Sarah, her first Czarina. Her files were corrected four times over by a number of people and they all disagreed on certain things. My experience with this is that Old English will *never* be absolutely correct for *everyone*, so I am happy to have it as is, barring the obvious problems (wert instead of were in plurial). People will just keep coming and want to correct things there and back all the time, everyone claiming the absolute authority.

[Miloch]

Miloch, you mean well, but you need to get someone who actually knows archaic English constructions to have a look at these.

 

I'll ignore your implication I don't know what I'm on about... this time. And I responded to your 'having a go' in the other thread.

 

@Domi: The strings above are the inconsistent ones. The rest of them use the same language I've used and are consistent (Early Modern English if you want to be precise). The fact I found a mere handful out of several hundred strings should say something.

[EiriktheScald]

Ah, Miloch, I see you're stirring the waters again. Isn't there a mandate somewhere, not to revise the original content?

[Miloch]

Isn't there a mandate somewhere, not to revise the original content?

Whatever. I'm fixing it in the BG1 Fixpack, that's where it is the worst. I can live with the few glitches above - they're nothing compared to the Bioware stuff.

[cmorgan]

ummm.... ok... let's back up a bit, folks

 

Miloch, thank you for the corrections - we are definitely aware of some inconsistencies in usage. Just to be clear, if that many things are actually fixed in Dy's dialogue, we have already overstepped the characterization bounds. I was obviously overzealous in applying text fixes for grammer last summer.

Dynaheir is not speaking Old English, or Quazi-Shakespearean, or anything. The BG1 NPC interpretation (as far as I know) was that she was a scholar who is translating from her home language into Common speech, and should have the warped, twisted, archaeic, slightly over-formal, not-precise sound as a great musician I was once playing for, who said silliness like "Horns, to fast, the notes! Please to be them slowing!"

 

If we have cleaned up her speech this much, we should probably go back and screw it up some more... but I can't see messing up her dialogue as a high priority item right now I'm still working on *fixing* stuff.

So, upshot,

1. Thank folks for reporting; please continue to do so, and go ahead and engage (politely) in the discussion! With Dynaheir, as opposed to everyone else, the fixes we are looking for are spelling r spacing, not incorrect usage or grammar. She is supposed to be "quaint".
   
2. Domi is Goddess of The BG1 NPC Project Dynaheir section.
   
3. Anything I add into the master copy is brought forth by the community from threads like this, but see #2.
   
4. Dynaheir's speech patterns may now have been messed up by our fixes; if we could get some input from the Project team I would appreciate it, as long as everyone understands #2 (of course, this may mean slaying several poor authors at Domi's feet to get her to revisit the files to re-instigate some malpropisms, but don't worry - there are lots of bad fantasy writers out there we can sacrifice!!!!)
   

Hey, I would put Blucher as original modder into the hot seat, but I don't want to scare him off

[Kulyok]

Domi is Goddess of The BG1 NPC Project Dynaheir section.

 

Hear, hear!

 

(Gods, I am dreaming of the time when we'll say: That's IT. It is COMPLETE - and there'll be no more additions, no more changes, no more components - just a ready mod - go and play. )

[cmorgan]

Silly me - I though "heck, I can do this for one summer, and it will all be wrapped up. One summer, 24/7, i can do it, learn alot, and have fun, and get all the cool new content and everything fixed up".

 

 

Oh, ye silly newbie me...

 

I think we are on track for next anniversary as a final version, now that berelinde and I are tag-teaming on both forums posts cross community and coding/dialogue for the final minor quests (not Imoen. That would have to be a standalone mod). If I had pulled in my horns and stuck to Tutu alone, we would be looking at a 2 year timeframe, but the crossover work between BGT and Tutu communities unearthed great stuff. With any luck at all on the translation front, we will be in "work around us now, as we have done everything we can" mode within the year. Translations, though...

[Domi]

Dynaheir's speech patterns may now have been messed up by our fixes; if we could get some input from the Project team I would appreciate it, as long as everyone understands #2 (of course, this may mean slaying several poor authors at Domi's feet to get her to revisit the files to re-instigate some malpropisms, but don't worry - there are lots of bad fantasy writers out there we can sacrifice!!!!)

 

There is really no need. The only thing that concerned me with Miloch's suggestion were the complex verbs, which would be visible if they were done in her banter file, and nowhere else. So, you'll have to either convert everything to composite verbal forms (the option I like less) or leave it as is (ie no composite verbs).

[berelinde]

For my part, I say let anything that's already written stand. At this point, fixing anything that isn't a spelling or typographical error is counterproductive. It's off to the translators, for crying out loud. How much more work do we need to make for them?

[Miloch]

If we have cleaned up her speech this much, we should probably go back and screw it up some more... but I can't see messing up her dialogue as a high priority item right now

"Messing up her dialogue" should be a no-priority item. As I've said before, I'll buy the fact her native language isn't Common, and she speaks an outdated version of it. But she's an intelligent person and is consistent - if you make it inconsistent, she sounds unintelligent. I *might* buy her changing her language to be closer to CHARNAME's over time, but that would come off as pretentious, a bit like someone faking an accent.

 

The only thing that concerned me with Miloch's suggestion were the complex verbs, which would be visible if they were done in her banter file, and nowhere else.

Those are already there, as they are in modern English (see @223 'doth not sound' instead of 'soundeth not'). If you want to avoid them, change 'Candlekeep doth rob' to 'Candlekeep robbeth' and 'thou dost persist' to 'thou persistest'. Given the awkwardness of the latter forms, I avoided them. Either one is better than 'thou persist' but as I said, pretty minor in comparison with some rather gross violations in the vanilla game.

 

And for the record, whoever came up with the final copy for this text (or whichever team finally agreed on it) really knew their stuff. I was hitting errors in every other line in the Bioware text and was hard pressed to find any in this one. If you don't want to mess with it, then don't. (I *will* object to my PC saying something like 'far farther' but I guess I'll just change that locally .)

[Domi]

'far farther' is an obvious typo, and nobody objects to correcting that.

 

Complex verb used in negation/question as in 'modern English' will be already there, but where there is no negation, modern English only uses a verb as modal or to emphasise (ie You do think that this is pretty.). Sarah kept her grammar consistent with modern English here, and it is kindda easier on the eyes and does not change her tone.

 

Given the awkwardness of the latter forms, I avoided them.

 

It's not just awkwardness, it's that they can be weak or strong verbs and there is a whole host of the rules that are unnecessary to try to enforce. Old English has its own grammar, its own vocabulary, and we are not recreating it. We just giving Dynaheir's speech a "peculiarity", the way BioWARE did, who knows why. They did the same with Haer'Dalis in BG2. They obviously think it's a hoot.

[Bookwyrme]

ummm.... ok... let's back up a bit, folks

 

If we have cleaned up her speech this much, we should probably go back and screw it up some more...

 

 

Please, please, don't! I can barely stand her speech in the unmodded version--she is way too inconsistent.

 

It's one thing to have her speak with "an accent"*; it's another matter entirely to make her speak with several accents, which is what the Bioware stuff does. She is all over the place.

 

*If, that is, you accept something vaguely reminiscent of Renaissance English as the equivalent of an accent, which I do not, but that is another matter entirely and not the concern of this mod.