? about Kelemvor

[Lady Fiana]

In PnP AD&D 2ed. does the diety Kelemvor have paladins serving him?

[Smoketest]

I doubt it since he's not lawful good. Since you're asking about 2E, here's some info from the Complete Paladin Handbook (2E).

Under alignment...

Every paladin must be lawful good. The moment he abandons the conditions of this alignment is the moment he stops being a paladin.

Consideration of an alternative...

Anti-Paladins

 

What better nemesis for a paladin than his direct opposite, an "anti-paladin" that embodies the forces of evil? As the mirror image of a normal paladin, an anti-paladin might be able to detect the presence of good, generate a aura of protection against good creatures, and wield an "unholy" sword.

 

Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of evil have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.

 

More possible alternatives...

 

 

Demihumans as Demipaladins

 

According to the PH, only humans can be paladins. But, using the rules in this book, a DM may allow paladin-like characters of other races in an AD&D® campaign. Lacking the necessary qualities to become paladins in the truest sense, these other races are subject to specific limitations and are known as demipaladins.

 

A demipaladin is a fighter/cleric who gains paladin-like powers from his deity after completing special quests for his church. A demipaladin may be a dwarf, gnome, elf, half-elf, or halfling. Any character desiring to become a demipaladin must be lawful good from the character's generation and have all the ability-score requirements of paladins.<snip>

Following a discussion of religious and secular institutions...

In no case will a paladin pledge fealty to a neutral or evil organization or individual. In a secular society with an evil government, he may pledge fealty to a lawful good religion, but not to the government itself. In a neutral theocracy, he must either pledge fealty to an underground or illegal lawful good religionâ€â€one independent of the theocratic rulersâ€â€or he must separate from his society, looking elsewhere for a government to serve.

I'm no 2E lore expert, but it seems pretty clear that making a Paladin of Kelemvor means ignoring this book and most other rules about paladins. They are meant to be unique, despite their rather plain and questionable representation in CRPGs of the last decade or so. Kelemvor would probably have devoted champions, or some special class involving the dead, but not a Paladin, or at least not a 2E Paladin.

 

Hope that helps. You are, of course, free to do what you want, but it may not be considered 'canon', if you break from the 2E rules to have your way.

 

(Sorry for the odd spacing; the rich editor has a habit of adding blank lines, especially when I don't.)

[berelinde]

And yet, it is possible to be a paladin of Helm, like Ajantis.

[Kulyok]

Kelemvor, as far as I am concerned, is a Mary Sue perfectly eligible to have paladins: he is an LN god, like Helm, Law is his realm of influence, and also: "In his mortal days, Kelemvor was a most skilled mercenary, with the heart of a noble paladin, concealed under rude manners and his family curse." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelemvor

 

I wonder how the paladin of Kelemvor will react to his patron imprisoning his friend Valygar in the Wall of Faithless for all eternity, though.

[berelinde]

Ilmater has paladins, although I forget what they are called. Ilmater is NG, so it isn't a problem.

 

BG1 had Ajantis, so I'm guessing gamewise, LN is alright for a paladin's patron.

 

Keldorn follows Torm, so that's OK, as Torm is LG.

 

Lathander has paladins in the Order of the Aster, so I guess NG is acceptible, too.

[Raven_Song]

*whispers to berelinde Ilmater is LG*

 

Anyhoo I came across this ... unfortunately it not 2E rules

 

 

Paladin Orders

 

Arvoreen: Arvoreen’s Marchers: cleric, fighter, rogue. An order in Tethyr recognized by the crown, they are highly respected by local humans and halflings alike. Their chapterhouse is called Keeperstone.

 

Baravar: Knights of the Shadowy Cloak: cleric, fighter, illusionist,Cloak- rogue. This order keeps a low profile in gnome commushadow communities and seeks to eliminate goblinoids, kobolds, and other evil humanoids, for these creatures cannot be redeemed. They work secretly so as to not attract attention or retaliation to local gnome communities.

 

Berronar: Berronar’s Valkyries: cleric, dwarven defender. This Truesilver order is exclusively female. They observe battles until they see a group of allies in particular danger, at which point they charge in to help. Most favor training involving mobility in battle.

 

Chauntea: Field Guardians: cleric, divine champion, divine disciple.* Gaerdal Shields of the Golden Hills: cleric, fighter. They are a Ironhand strictly organized order dedicated to defending gnome communities against any attackers and serving as officers and champions of larger gnome military assemblies.

 

Helm: Vigilant Eyes of the God: arcane devotee, cleric, fighter, divine champion, Purple Dragon knight. *

 

Horus-Re: Claws of the Sun and the Ankh: cleric, divine champion, divine disciple, hierophant. Caring little for day-to-day politics, this relatively new order spends most of its time fighting servants of Set (or even Anhur, when he has been causing trouble).

 

Ilmater: Order of the Golden Cup: cleric, divine disciple, hierophant. This order is dedicated to healing and protecting the sick, innocent, and weak, rather than seeking out evil to destroy. They are not opposed to such actions, but see their role as something different. Companions of the Noble Heart: divine champion, fighter. The Companions are the aggressive counterparts to the Golden Cup, for they are tasked with eliminating the cruel and those who are known to enjoy the torture and suffering of others. The church of Loviatar is their greatest enemy.

 

Kelemvor: Knights of the Eternal Order: cleric, doomguide (Faiths & Pantheons). This is a recently-created order, founded to seek out and destroy powerful undead that tax the powers of the normal branches of the church.

 

Lathander :Order of the Aster: cleric, divine champion, divine disciple, hierophant,

 

Purple Dragon knight. *

 

Milil: Harmonious Order: fighter. This group of personable and swaggering paladins encourages bards (whom they tolerate despite alignment differences) to accompany them to create ballads based on their exploits. Their role is to guard Milil’s churches and do good works in Milil’s name.

 

Moradin: Hammers of Moradin: cleric, fighter, divine champion, dwarven defender, runecaster. *

 

Mystra Knights of the Mystic Fire: guild wizard of Waterdeep (Magic of Faerûn), wizard. This group of paladins often accompanies other members of the church on

quests to locate lost hoards of ancient magic. The church draws upon their ranks for the leaders of temple guardians.

 

Nobanion: Legion of Lions (wemics and werelions only): cleric, divine champion. Founded shortly after the Time of Troubles, this fellowship exists to protect good-aligned monsters and slay the servants of Malar.

 

Osiris: Order of the Risen Scepter: cleric, ranger. Drawn exclusively from those who have died in combat with servants of Set and been raised from the dead (sometimes spontaneously by the power of Osiris), they are primarily hunters of Set’s minions.

 

Red Knight: Order of the Red Falcon: divine champion, fighter. Housed in the Citadel of Strategic Militancy (northeast of Baldur’s Gate), this small order has a history of triumphing in the face of overwhelming odds. They train officers and others in tactics and military history.

 

Siamorphe: Order of the Silver Chalice: aristocrat, fighter. This group is primarily Tethyrian nobles dedicated to locating lost members of noble families and restoring to power those who will govern with the interests of the common people at heart. After several years of debate, they have decided to support the queen of Tethyr, and the crown recognizes them as a knightly order.

 

Sune: Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose: divine champion.*

 

Torm: Order of the Golden Lion: Any one other class. *

 

Tyr: Knights of Holy Judgment: cleric, divine champion. This order focuses on the more lawful aspects of Tyr’s philosophy, and hunts and punishes criminals and lawbreakers,particularly devils (seen as abhorrent perversions of a lawful society). Knights of the Merciful Sword: fighter, divine champion. This order is focuses on upholding good in the world as defined by Tyr, and slays all kinds of evil monsters, particularly demons.

 

Yondalla: Shields of Yondalla: monk (Hin Fist). * Wayward Wardens: cleric, ranger. This group is a loose fellowship of wandering halflings who feel the need to see the world and aren’t tied to any particular settlement. They protect halfling communities whenever they are found in need of help.

 

* Described in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting.

[berelinde]

Heh. You're right. Perverse typo.

[Smoketest]

And yet, it is possible to be a paladin of Helm, like Ajantis.

I don't consider the games for that, because Bioware fudged a lot of the rules due to supposed limitations involved in taking gameplay from pnp to computer (a big limitation being their own imaginations, I'd argue).

 

However, since the rules are written by less-than-perfect men and women, I don't doubt there are loopholes and flaws that one could take advantage of to have a paladin of anything. I think it makes paladins rather plain and pointless, like "Gee, I'm a fighter", but to each their own.

 

The handbook said a diety could certainly have their own special champions, by other names, but that the Paladin name was reserved for Lawful Good alignments. So if it's another alignment, and 2E, it must not be a true paladin.

[Twani]

In third edition, yes, Kelemvor can and does have paladins.

 

In second edition, that doesn't seem to be so. He is not LG, there is no published 2E paladin NPC that follows him (in fact, there seems to be very few published NPCs that are paladins- they all follow Helm, Tyr, Illmater, Lathander or Torm, with one following Chauntea and one following Osiris... and, one following *TYMORA*, of all things), and he is not written as having paladins anywhere in any sourcebook.

 

...On the other hand, the City of Raven's Bluff sourcebook gives us that paladin of Tymora. If she can have a paladin, I don't see why Kelemvor can't. It's certainly less weird.

 

(If I was GMing a game, I would allow it. I would, however, consider it a houserule- canonly, it doesn't seem allowed.)

[BigRob]

It would depend on the nature of the deity, I would have thought, generally based off the alignments allowed for worshippers of the deity in question. If the deity allows LG mortals to be worshippers, then there might be some room for Paladinhood in there.

 

Such a paladin would not be in the centreline of the deity's faith (if the deity is not LG themselves) and there would be conflict with the established order. Paladins of Tyr, for example, would have to temper their justice with good. This is obviously acceptable to some small aspect of Tyr, but perhaps less so to the church itself, who follow the dominant aspect of the god.

[berelinde]

BigRob has a point. Paladins aren't clerics, even if they do have clerical spells.

 

A lawful good alignment is hard to maintain. Between that, the stat requirement, the lifestyle considerations, and the racial restrictions, paladins are still plenty special.

[Lady Fiana]

Thanks for all replies!

[NiGHTMARE]

In both 2nd and 3rd Edition, a Paladin has to be LG, but can worship any deity within one step of his alignment; so that's LG, NG, or LN.

 

The only difference between 2E and 3E in regards to paladins is that in 2E, only humans can be paladins (with a tiny number of exceptions, e.g. Milil can have half-elf paladins).

 

The 2E sourcebooks Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons detail most of the 2E paladin orders.