XP granted for killing Summon Fiend's Glabrezu

[Caedwyr]

Incidently, what was the decision made about creatures that you can summon, but try to kill you giving xp?

[Nythrun]

So, I was going to do something like this:

COPY_EXISTING // These are all player accessible
		  ~bearblsu.cre~ ~override~ // Black Bear (sppr501.spl -> spanim2.eff -> anisum02.2da)
		  ~bearbrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Brown Bear (sppr501.spl -> spanim2.eff -> anisum02.2da)
		  ~bearcasu.cre~ ~override~ // Cave Bear (sppr501.spl -> spanim2.eff -> anisum02.2da) (sppr602.spl -> spanim3.eff -> anisum03.2da)
		  ~bearposu.cre~ ~override~ // Mountain Bear (sppr602.spl -> spanim3.eff -> anisum03.2da) (sppr604.spl -> spanim04.eff -> anisum04.2da)
		  ~catliosu.cre~ ~override~ // Lion (sppr501.spl -> spanim2.eff -> anisum02.2da) (sppr602.spl -> spanim3.eff -> anisum03.2da)
		  ~catliowp.cre~ ~override~ // Joolon (misc3d.itm -> figlion.eff)
		  ~demglasu.cre~ ~override~ // Glabrezu (spwi807.spl -> spfiend.eff)
		  ~djinnisu.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni (spwi718.spl -> spdj.eff)
		  ~dogwasu.cre~  ~override~ // War Dog (sppr402.spl -> spani01.eff -> anisum01.2da)
		  ~dogwisu.cre~  ~override~ // Rabid Dog (spwi309.spl -> spmon1.eff -> spwi309.spl)
		  ~efreetsu.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti (spwi717.spl -> spefreet.eff)
		  ~ettercsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ettercap (spwi503.spl -> spmon3.eff -> monsum03.2da)
		  ~ghastsu.cre~  ~override~ // Skeleton (sppr301.spl/spwi501.spl -> spandead.eff)
		  ~gnollsu.cre~  ~override~ // Gnoll Elite (spwi407.spl -> spmon2.eff -> monsum02.2da)
		  ~haksu.cre~	~override~ // Hakeashar (spwi719.spl -> sphack.eff)
		  ~hobgobsu.cre~ ~override~ // Hobgoblin Elite (spwi407.spl -> spmon2.eff -> monsum02.2da)
		  ~koboldsu.cre~ ~override~ // Kobold Commando (spwi309.spl -> spmon1.eff -> spwi309.spl
		  ~nishrusu.cre~ ~override~ // Nishruu (spwi624.spl -> spnish.eff)
		  ~nymphsu.cre~  ~override~ // Nymph (sppr410.spl -> nymphsu.eff)
		  ~ogregrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Ogre Berserker (spwi503.spl -> spmon3.eff -> monsum03.2da)
		  ~rabbitsu.cre~ ~override~ // Rabbit (spwi919 -> wish02.cre -> spin735.spl -> rabbitsu.eff)
		  ~servsu.cre~   ~override~ // Aerial Servant (sppr601.spl -> spserv.eff)
		  ~skelwasu.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton Warrior (sppr301.spl/spwi501 -> spandl15.eff)
		  ~smoundsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shambling Mound (staf14.itm -> mound.eff)
		  ~spidgisu.cre~ ~override~ // Giant Spider (spwi423.spl -> spidgisu.eff)
		  ~spidphsu.cre~ ~override~ // Phase Spider (spwi423.spl -> spidphsu.eff)
		  ~spidswsu.cre~ ~override~ // Sword Spider (spwi423.spl -> spidswsu.eff)
		  ~stalke.cre~   ~override~ // Invisible Stalker (spwi601.spl -> spstalk.eff)
		  ~sumdjinn.cre~ ~override~ // Djinni (ring26.itm -> sumdjinn.eff)
		  ~sumelair.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Air Elemental (staf15.itm -> staf15.eff)
		  ~sumefree.cre~ ~override~ // Efreeti (misc3c.itm -> sumefr.eff)
		  ~sumelear.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Earth Elemental (staf16.itm -> staf16.eff)
		  ~sumelfir.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Fire Elemental (staf17.itm -> staf17.eff)
		  ~tomegol1.cre~ ~override~ // Flesh Golem (tome01.itm -> tome01.eff)
		  ~tomegol2.cre~ ~override~ // Clay Golem (tome02.itm -> tome02.eff)
		  ~tomegol3.cre~ ~override~ // Stone Golem (tome03.itm -> tome03.eff
		  ~tomegol4.cre~ ~override~ // Juggernaut Golem (tome04.itm -> tome04.eff)
		  ~wish02.cre~   ~override~ // Djinni (spwi919.spl)
		  ~wolfdisu.cre~ ~override~ // Dire Wolf (sppr402.spl -> spani01.eff -> anisum01.2da) (spwi407.spl -> spmon2.eff -> monsum02.2da)
		  ~wolfwwsu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf (sppr602.spl -> spanim3.eff -> anisum03.2da)
		  ~worgsu.cre~   ~override~ // Worg (spwi309.spl -> spmon1.eff -> spwi309.spl)
		  ~wyvernsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wyvern (spwi619.spl -> wyvernsu.eff)
		  // and these are enemy only but summoned in a familiar way
		  ~c6guen.cre~   ~override~ // Guenhwyvar (c6drizz.cre -> c6drizz1.dlg)
		  ~sahangu.cre~  ~override~ // Anguiliian (ar2300.are -> sahambo6.cre -> sahambo6.bcs)
		  ~sahlace.cre~  ~override~ // Lacedon (ar2003.are -> sahambo3.cre -> sahambo3.bcs)
		  ~sahskel.cre~  ~override~ // Skeleton Warrior (ar2003.are -> sahambo3.cre -> sahambo3.bcs)
		  ~sahzomb.cre~  ~override~ // Sea Zombie (ar2003.are -> sahambo3.cre -> sahambo3.bcs)
		  ~senstalk.cre~ ~override~ // Invisible Stalker (ar6108.bcs)
		  ~telelfir.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Fire Elemental (ar3010.are -> teltan1.cre -> teltan1.bcs -> spin570.spl -> sutelfir.eff)
		  ~telicesa.cre~ ~override~ // Ice Salamander (ar3010.are -> teltan2.cre -> teltan2.bcs -> spin569.spl -> sutelice.eff)
		  // These are unused but of obvious intent for UB authors - spend the day ironing your doilies and polishing your lawn instead
		  /*
		  ~basilgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Basilisk (spwi8)
		  ~basillsu.cre~ ~override~ // Lesser Basilisk (spwi610.spl)
		  ~beargrsu.cre~ ~override~ // Grizzly Bear
		  ~catjagsu.cre~ ~override~ // Panther
		  ~ghastgsu.cre~ ~override~ // Greater Ghast
		  ~gibbersu.cre~ ~override~ // Gibberling
		  ~hamasu.cre~   ~override~ // Hamadryad
		  ~jaguarsu.cre~ ~override~ // Jaguar
		  ~jellmusu.cre~ ~override~ // Mustard Jelly (spwi610.spl)
		  ~ogremasu.cre~ ~override~ // Ogre Mage (spwi610.spl)
		  ~sumtan01.cre~ ~override~ // Tanar'ri
		  ~sumtan02.cre~ ~override~ // Tanar'ri
		  ~tasloisu.cre~ ~override~ // Tasloi Elite Trooper (spwi706.spl)
		  ~wolfsu.cre~   ~override~ // Wolf
		  ~wolfwisu.cre~ ~override~ // Winter Wolf (spwi610.spl)
		  ~wraithsu.cre~ ~override~ // Wraith
		  ~xvartsu.cre~  ~override~ // Xvart Protector
		  */
 PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x02d3) THEN BEGIN
WRITE_LONG 0x0014 0x00  // XP
WRITE_LONG 0x001c 0x00  // Gelt, just hobgobsu.cre
WRITE_BYTE 0x0240 0x00  // "Don't check morale"
READ_LONG  0x02bc ilo   // lazy overkill no-steal no-drop patch
FOR (READ_LONG 0x02c0 ilc; ilc > 0x00; ilc -= 0x01) BEGIN
  READ_LONG  (ilo + (ilc * 0x14) - 0x04) flg
  WRITE_LONG (ilo + (ilc * 0x14) - 0x04) (flg | 0x0a)
END
 END
BUT_ONLY

// change, devSin sez no on the first two, I say that they're bought slaves
COPY_EXISTING ~dagnoll.cre~  ~override~ // Gnoll (ar2200.are)
		  ~daumber.cre~  ~override~ // Umber Hulk (ar2200.are)
 PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x02d3) THEN BEGIN
WRITE_BYTE 0x0275 0x01
 END
BUT_ONLY
COPY_EXISTING ~demnab02.cre~ ~override~ // Nabassu (ar2800.are)
		  ~gormistp.cre~ ~override~ // Poison Mist (ar3016.bcs)
		  ~telcam1.cre~  ~override~ // Cambion (ar3007.are)
		  ~uddoor07.cre~ ~override~ // Skeleton (ar2402.are)
 PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x02d3) THEN BEGIN
WRITE_BYTE 0x0275 0x04
 END
BUT_ONLY

// Debatable, let's bicker some about these - I'm not touching the balor, the elemental gets 0 xp, and the mist and shadow go to 4
COPY_EXISTING ~balor01.cre~  ~override~ // Balor (deck.itm -> deck.eff -> deck.cre -> domt.dlg -> spin616.spl -> deck616.eff), 9
		  ~deckfele.cre~ ~override~ // Fire Elemental (deck.itm -> deck.eff -> deck.cre -> domt.dlg -> spin616.spl -> deck616a.eff) 6
		  ~mistpo01.cre~ ~override~ // Poison Mist (ar2008.bcs -> barl.cre -> spin677.spl -> sppois.eff) 6
		  ~shadowsu.cre~ ~override~ // Shadow (shalt01.cre - > shalt01.bcs/ar1401.are -> spbridge.bcs -> spin880.spl -> spshad.eff) 6
BUT_ONLY

// Whatever
/*
COPY_EXISTING ~alufie02.cre~ ~override~ // Alu-Fiend, 9
		  ~cambion1.cre~ ~override~ // Cambion 9
		  ~catjagwp.cre~ ~override~ // Panther 6
		  ~dembal01.cre~ ~override~ // Balor 9
		  ~dembal02.cre~ ~override~ // Balor 9
		  ~demnab01.cre~ ~override~ // Nabassu 9
		  ~demosum4.cre~ ~override~ // Cambion (demosum04.eff, not used in spin549.spl) 9
		  ~dempit.cre~   ~override~ // Pit Fiend 9
		  ~elfirsu.cre~  ~override~ // Fire Elemental 6
		  ~telbal2.cre~  ~override~ // Balor 9
		  ~telsuc1.cre~  ~override~ // Alu-Fiend 9
BUT_ONLY
*/

 

...before having a rush of brains to the head. There's no reference anywhere in the manual nor dialog.tlk to summons not granting experience; this is quite possibly a bad trip induced by smoking too much PNP.

[Salk]

Hm... Then I guess this should be moved to No Actions?

[devSin]

For the DA slaves, the remark wasn't that they should be gender summoned but that they shouldn't give XP (no buying and killing for XP or loot).

[Nerik]

I'm reminded of something we found during the D&D 3.0 playtest (apart from the infinite-range missile weapons) - You could get summon spells at 1st level, and there was nothing stopping the rest of the party from gaining experience from defeating these summoned creatures (you also got multiple creatures per summon spell as well).

 

Charles

[SimDing0]

It's a consistency issue, primarily, rather than being the consequence of any rules written down anywhere. Either it is a bug that some summoned creatures do not grant XP when killed, or it is a bug that some do.

[Caedwyr]

The way I see it, is if you cause a creature to appear and the first thing it does is try to kill you just like if you had encountered one normally, it probably should provide experience. Yes, there may be an exploit for unlimited experience here, but it'd require quite a bit of work and time and is no where near as bad as some of the existing infinite experience exploits already in the game.

[Nythrun]

Hm... Then I guess this should be moved to No Actions?

Probably not, honestly. If Bioware took the time to change any fields in their rampant cut-n-paste frenzy, it ought to be taken seriously.

 

It's just less cut and dried than I would have liked

[frabjous]

The way I see it, is if you cause a creature to appear and the first thing it does is try to kill you just like if you had encountered one normally, it probably should provide experience. Yes, there may be an exploit for unlimited experience here, but it'd require quite a bit of work and time and is no where near as bad as some of the existing infinite experience exploits already in the game.

Remember that if you're protected from evil, they can't harm you, so it's really not very much work at all.

Indeed, it seems about as easy as infinite Freedom scroll scribing, and more convenient since it doesn't cost anything. And if anything, it's easier than killing Fire Giants in Saradush because you're not limited to missile weapons and each one is worth more XP.

I actually don't know of too many other infinite xp exploits, but perhaps I'm just ignorant.

[Caedwyr]

Right, but arguing that they are easy to kill because of protection from evil can lead to an argument that all demons should be worth 0 xp because they are easy to kill with protection from evil.

 

Fire Giants in Saradush can be done overnight and unattended. If you have a player who is going to go to the trouble of memorizing a stack of the fiend spells, protect their party from evil, summon some fiends, kill them, refresh protection from evil and repeat the process for 9-18k experience each then they are committing a significant portion of time they could be spending elsewhere and continuing the storyline. Also since this is a single player game I don't really see the need for closing up a potential infinite experience exploit, since they can just as easily CLUAConsole themselves whatever xp total they want.

 

I'd argue that since we're really arguing over developer intent instead of a clear-cut bugged script, or broken dialogue it'd be best to pattern the solution after the closest in-game example.

 

Other infinite xp exploits that I know of, include the lightning mephit machine in the first area of Chateau Irenicus, and the mephit portals on the second area of Chateau Irenicus. There is also the screaming face statue near the diseased ones temple in the Unseeing Eye quest area that summons spiders or other creatures whenever you click on it, and if you rest near the undead town nearby you almost always are awoken by a group of Greater Mummies. With a high enough level cleric you can make them instantly explode and there is always daystar if you don't have that.

[devSin]

No, only summoned demons (Gender 9) are protected against. Normal demons will tear you up, pathetic first-level spell or no!

 

The lightning machine is supposed to run out of energy after 7 or so mephits (but it may have been broken; don't remember). The mephit portal is true, but I think the screaming mouth also runs out of spiders after a predetermined limit.

 

Nobody knows the true particulars of rest and random spawns, so they can't be considered for fixing even where you could argue the XP rewards are "infinite."

[Nythrun]

I think it's seven waves for the screaming mouth also.

[Caedwyr]

No, only summoned demons (Gender 9) are protected against. Normal demons will tear you up, pathetic first-level spell or no!

 

Hmm, if that is the case then the bulk of my argument is removed. I suppose one could still argue that the fact that they try to kill you upon summoning is a reason they should give xp, but then you'd also have the situation where a summon has turned red circled because you attacked it and it should then give experience.

 

If summoned demons behave significantly different from non-summoned ones, then thats support for zeroing all the summoned ones experience.

[devSin]

Summoned demons will attack anyone they can get their claws on -- they first look to see if they can find any party members to snack on, but if they don't find any, they'll pick the nearest available soul to munch.

 

Real demons attack (mostly) only the party and have far better special powers. The peasant soul isn't worth picking from the teeth.

 

Like Sim said, it's mostly consistency. In the default game, some summons give XP and others don't, and there's no real evidence to suggest which designer was right (I'm of the mind that the attentive designer who was able to copy directly from BG/TotSC was correct with 0 XP, and the lazy designer who had to copy from all the new creatures but didn't bother to change the XP was wrong). The problem is that summons aren't static -- some will always be hostile to the party, so it's either a decision that no summon, hostile or otherwise, grants experience, or they all do.

[frabjous]

Summoned demons will attack anyone they can get their claws on -- they first look to see if they can find any party members to snack on, but if they don't find any, they'll pick the nearest available soul to munch.

 

Actually, one of the oddities I noted in the original post in the thread is that, unlike Cacofiend's Nabassu and Gate's Pit Fiend, Summon Fiend's Glabrezu will not attack blue circle neutrals. (Though I can't see why this should make a difference as to whether they should be worth XP: indeed, if anything it would seem to make it less likely that they ought to be worth XP.)

 

But all three are much easier to kill and act differently from other enemy demons you run into, yes.

 

As long I'm mentioning oddities about gated demons, is it worth mentioning that summoned Pit Fiends (and I assume Nabassus too) can attack and even kill inactive Sendai statues? (I haven't tested with the statues on the top of Watcher's Keep.) I'm not sure what sorts of bugs that could lead to.