NPC Attributes

[Lollorian]

Thanks a lot pal (hmm, maybe the BWP could include these )

 

Cheers,

Lol

[Ergopad]

What is BWP?

[yarpen]

Big World Project.

If you're looking for far more role-playing version of this mod for BG2: SoA, check this

http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=43563

[Lollorian]

What is BWP?

Like yarpen said, BiG World Project - an attempt to make all mods ever created for BGII-ToB compatible with each other (for the best mod-gaming experience this side of the planet )

 

Cheers,

Lol

[mos_anted]

Hi. Sorry to bring this one back up, but I was wondering if any more work has been done to this, or if not, if someone would be so kind as to reupload the file (links are already dead). I've found this a very interesting mod, and was wondering if it's usable in Tutu and with other mods (esp. Level 1 npc's). Beats having to manually edit the NPC's stats in SK each laythrough

[Miloch]

I have it - somewhere - actually a few different versions of it. I'll try to see which is the most recent and publish it somewhere it can be reached, I guess. Though the version I have messes only with BG1 NPCs - I guess Ergopad never got around to messing with the BG2 ones, though he has spreadsheets in his earlier posts indicating he considered it, hmm.

[mos_anted]

I have it - somewhere - actually a few different versions of it. I'll try to see which is the most recent and publish it somewhere it can be reached, I guess. Though the version I have messes only with BG1 NPCs - I guess Ergopad never got around to messing with the BG2 ones, though he has spreadsheets in his earlier posts indicating he considered it, hmm.

 

Thanks! I'll really appreciate it! Do you know if this is compatible with Tutu/level 1 npc's mod?

[Miloch]

Yeah it's compatible with Tutu but needs some tweaks for BGT. Should be compatible with L1NPCs either way.

[Aion]

I disagree with the statement that "weak" NPC's are "not playable". I'll be repeating it over and over that even NPC's with lower general stats than others are able to survive a thorough playthrough of BG1, BG1 Tutu, and BG2. Personally, I see no reason or need to tweak stats. Weapon profs maybe, but only in BG1 Tutu, as I was used to certain weapons in vanilla BG1 (gave Khalid a longsword and shield, gave Kivan a halberd and composite longbow, etc).

 

Branwen having no strength to use regular hammers? Hammers require less strength to use than maces (maces require 10 strength), so even Aerie and Viconia can use both. Branwen with 13 strength has no problems at all.

[mos_anted]

I disagree with the statement that "weak" NPC's are "not playable". I'll be repeating it over and over that even NPC's with lower general stats than others are able to survive a thorough playthrough of BG1, BG1 Tutu, and BG2. Personally, I see no reason or need to tweak stats. Weapon profs maybe, but only in BG1 Tutu, as I was used to certain weapons in vanilla BG1 (gave Khalid a longsword and shield, gave Kivan a halberd and composite longbow, etc).

 

Branwen having no strength to use regular hammers? Hammers require less strength to use than maces (maces require 10 strength), so even Aerie and Viconia can use both. Branwen with 13 strength has no problems at all.

 

From what I gather, the issue wasn't that npc's weren't playable, but to make an effort to make all of the npc's in BG1 balanced like the ones in BG2 (personal preference notwithstanding). As it stands, you have a bunch of npc's with crap stats, and a few with exceptional stats.

 

Branwen's strength was never an issue, Ergopad argued giving her +2 WIS but no change for her STR. What was argued, if I remember correctly by Miloch himself, was to fix both Quayle's and Tiax's Strength, so they could use their starting equipment. As currently stands, Quayle has 8 STR but comes equipped with a flail (min 13 STR) and Tiax has 9 STR but comes equipped with a Mace (min 10 STR).

[mos_anted]

I've been thinking about the npc's stat changes, and after trying a few of them in game (thanks to SK) I have some feedback/suggestions to make, if someone intends to keep working on this mod.

 

First I believe we should establish some baseline with which to evaluate npc's, to see wheter a stat increase is justified (i.e., while nice, I beleive Khalid's Dex increase from 16 to 17 is unwarranted, though fixing his INT to 15 not, as it obviously is a mistake). I would suggest strting from Ergopad's evaluation of npc's and consider establishing a baseline from there. I would start perhaps with NPC's with a grade lower of 6, though I would've liked if ERgopad had shared his evalaution algorythm, so that we could use it to gauge when can certain npc be considered balanced, compared to the others. Or, we could also take an average of the total rolls of npc's, either in BG! or 2, and use it as a reference.

 

For some of Ergopad's suggested changes, I'd like to give my opinion:

Branwen: not sure if additional WIS is needed, would like to evalaute in a more detailed fashion

Coran: Not sure if -1 Dex +2 Str is a fair trade. Thoguhts?

Eldoth: DEX and INT are indeed pretty low and could use a boost, however it kinda feels strange to have three 15's together It could just be me though

Faldorn: changes look good, however, as I said, a way to further rate her would be nice

Garrick: Looks good, though I might consider lowering his WIS further (-5, to match the +5 to stats). I would consider exchanging NPC's stats (-1/+1) a fair trade.

Kagain: -1 Con +1 Str looks fair enough for me, always found his strength to be a bit low for a front liner.

Khalid: Just fix his INT (15)

Quayle: Badly needing a boost (lowest roll, lower than possible for the PC!) However, I think Ergopad's boosts are a bit too much. I would fix his STR to be able to wield his starting Flail (13), +1 to INT (18), just enough WIS to avoid spell failure, according to PnP rules (12), and would leave Cha as is (or perhaps raise it to 8), as I see it as a reflection of his obnoxious personality.

Tiax: Raise STR to 10 (to equip maces) and DEX to 17. I'm not convinced of boosting his WIS however, since he would end up wiser than Jaheira

Yeslick: +1 CON is ok, to reflect Dwarven hardiness.

 

Thoughts?

[Miloch]

Who said either Jaheira or Tiax is wise? Jaheira *thinks* she is certainly; Tiax probably thinks he's got 20s in all stats.

 

I don't have Ergopad's spreadsheets or algorithms, just the screenshots. I don't know if an algorithm is needed though. On one hand, I'm kind of opposed to obvious "min/maxing" (lowering one stat solely to increase another to give a bonus) but on the other hand, some NPCs are woefully inadequate, to the point where most people don't use them. Obviously there are differences between NPCs, and they shouldn't all have the same average of stats, but they shouldn't be useless either. I think it's acceptable to change stats if you can justify it in terms of roleplay and personality. But I don't want to complicate this either by allowing multiple options for each NPC. If you can come up with a compromise with Ergopad's choices that makes sense, that would be preferable. There is already an optional component to lower "illegal" stats (Coran and Kagain) or not.

[mos_anted]

Who said either Jaheira or Tiax is wise? Jaheira *thinks* she is certainly; Tiax probably thinks he's got 20s in all stats.

 

I don't have Ergopad's spreadsheets or algorithms, just the screenshots. I don't know if an algorithm is needed though. On one hand, I'm kind of opposed to obvious "min/maxing" (lowering one stat solely to increase another to give a bonus) but on the other hand, some NPCs are woefully inadequate, to the point where most people don't use them. Obviously there are differences between NPCs, and they shouldn't all have the same average of stats, but they shouldn't be useless either. I think it's acceptable to change stats if you can justify it in terms of roleplay and personality. But I don't want to complicate this either by allowing multiple options for each NPC. If you can come up with a compromise with Ergopad's choices that makes sense, that would be preferable. There is already an optional component to lower "illegal" stats (Coran and Kagain) or not.

 

Allright, as an exercise I made an evaluation of BG1 NPC's stats using the same method as in Aldeth the Foppish's BG 2 NPC guide @ sorcerers.net. I only took into account the NPC's Abilities, not any special skills or quests. The results are ... interesting, to say the list.

 

BG NPCS.ods

 

I included BG2's stats for the returning NPC's, to compare how the programmers improved them. NPC's who "fail" (rating<60) are marked red, Ergopad's suggested improvements are marked blue, and BG2's returning NPC's are marked green.

I found interesting how a fan "favourite" (at least it seems a lot of Good-aligned parties take him) like Ajantis has such low stats. Then again, this is not taking into consideration his special skills, so that may even the score a little.

 

I'll take my own stab at NPC fixes and improvements:

Ajantis: Based in my analysis above, I could argue an increase in STR or CON, but I don't feel he warrants it. This highlights an issue I've always had with the way 2e AD&D handled stats: too high rolls for too low bonuses. Compare his stats using 3e's ability modifiers, and he turns into a superb char.

Branwen: If we are using Viconia's BG2 Wisdom, then I agree we should give both trueclass clerics 18 WIS.

Coran: The change in Strength and Dexterity actually lowers his grade so no complaints there, agreed mainly to get him a legal score.

Eldoth: not really convinced of the changes, but can't really think of something better, other than raising his DEX and lowering his INT (perhaps 17/13? doesn't strike me as too bright)

Faldorn: Changes seem acceptable, no objections here.

Garrick: Changes are ok, though I would raise his DEX to 17, lower INT to 15, and lower WIS further, perhaps to 9 (he seems very naive and lacking common sense, judging from several dialogues from BG2 and the BG1 NPC project)

Kagain: +1 STR -1 CON seems pretty good to me.

Khalid: fixing his INT is a given (15). The Dex increase actually doesn't affect him much, no issue here, though I think an increase in STR would help him more.

Minsc: using BG2 stats

Quayle: The single NPC most needing of a fix, man do his stats suck! Even then, Ergopad's improvements seem excesive to me. I would raise his STR to 13 (I don't consider this an improvement so much but a fix, so he can use his default weapon), INT to 18 (to somewhat reflect the gnomish bonus, even though he's not as intelligent as he can be), WIS to 12 (again, PnP minimum to avoid spell failure, also compare to Anomen (pre-knighthood) from BG2, an also arrogant, obnoxious and naive character) and raise Cha to 8 (obnoxious and annoying) just so it doesn't look so low.

Tiax: Again, I consider raising his STR more a fix than improvement (10). Raise his DEX to 17, but leave WIS as is (Wisdom represents common sense and he doesn't appear to have much).

Yeslick: As stated before, +1 CON seems pretty ok.

 

Thoughts/comments?

[the bigg]

While I agree that NPC stats are anything but balanced (especially in BG1, where stats are more important *and* the distribution is less balanced and/or sensible than in BG2), I would make the point that installing 3rd edition stats from tb#tweaks would be a more elegant solution than manually altering stats (except maybe for a couple of extreme cases).

[mos_anted]

While I agree that NPC stats are anything but balanced (especially in BG1, where stats are more important *and* the distribution is less balanced and/or sensible than in BG2), I would make the point that installing 3rd edition stats from tb#tweaks would be a more elegant solution than manually altering stats (except maybe for a couple of extreme cases).

 

Mmm, hadn't seen that mode before, and yes, it looks pretty good. Will it work with a game underway, or does it require to start a new game?

IIRC, I would still consider fixing at least Khalid's INT, and both gnomes STR.