SR V2.9

[Salk]

Power Word Sleep

What did you do with sleep?

You mean Power Word Sleep? I was forgetting about it! (still inside me I don't like too much to add a save to a Power Word spell...but I think this spell is incredibly useless without it)

 

Please don't!

 

It's a trademark of the Power Word the fact that no save is allowed!

 

It'd be really bad to add it. I'd rather see it gone from the mage book...

 

Oh noes, who cares if the spell can actually be used, the game is ruined if a pw gets a save!

 

PW:Sleep is still going to not allow a save against <20hp creatures.

I'm with Raj

 

I'm not.

 

The fact that it does not allow a save under some circumstances doesn't change the thing. Power Word spells do not allow for a saving throw. The spell is not made any better by making it allow for a saving throw. There must be other solutions than just that one.

 

A so modified spell will certainly be taken off the installation on my side.

[Shaitan]

Let's agree to disagree then. You're still able to cut PW Sleep out depending on what Demi decides

[DavidW]

Let's agree to disagree then. You're still able to cut PW Sleep out depending on what Demi decides

 

From a tactical point of view, the existing sleep spell isn't useless. I use it quite a lot in SCS AI. Having access to an instant coup-de-grace isn't to be sneezed at.

 

I can believe that it's not that useful for PC parties, because you can probably (though not always!) spare a fighter to go over and deliver the coup-de-grace instead. But don't forget, the spell system isn't just for the PCs - enemy mages have rights too!

 

(I'm also minded to agree with Salk that it spoils the flavour of a Power Word spell to add a save.)

[Raj]

AI knows when a party member reaches 20 hp, a player can only figure that so the usage is never optimal and when a enemy reaches that low another similar level spell or some direct damage prove more useful. If I want to deal with a near death opponent I'd memorize a Agannazar Flame ( or use a magic missle, or spare a fighter, but let compare to another lvl 2 spell ) over PW:Sleep any day, when is the latter more useful?

 

The change is not going to change anything for AI that is still going to use when the pc reaches 20 and is not allowed a save btw.

 

Anyway, the spell is not going to change for v3 so who cares, I played the game 8 years without, I'm not going to miss it still I have the feeling that the mod was aimed at making every spell useful.

[Shaitan]

Anyway, the spell is not going to change for v3 so who cares, I played the game 8 years without, I'm not going to miss it still I have the feeling that the mod was aimed at making every spell useful.

Are you sure? Well I can only hope for Demi finishing SR3 this weekend

[DavidW]

AI knows when a party member reaches 20 hp, a player can only figure that so the usage is never optimal and when a enemy reaches that low another similar level spell or some direct damage prove more useful.

 

You can usually make an intelligent guess. In BG1, for instance, most "near death" creatures are going to be at 20 hp or less.

 

If I want to deal with a near death opponent I'd memorize a Agannazar Flame ( or use a magic missle, or spare a fighter, but let compare to another lvl 2 spell ) over PW:Sleep any day, when is the latter more useful?

Until 9th level, magic missile does appreciably less than 20 hp damage; it's also more risky; it's also not available to all schools. You might not have a fighter spare (in particular, you might be an enemy mage fighting solo or with a bit of summoned help). You might be a computer-controlled opponent, and so lack the tactical coordination to send in an ally to finish off someone. Agannazar is fiddly to aim without doing collateral damage (impossible for AI) and has (iirc) fairly short range.

 

The change is not going to change anything for AI that is still going to use when the pc reaches 20 and is not allowed a save btw.

Granted, but I'm making the case for why this change isn't needed, not the case for why it will break SCSII (you're right, it won't).

 

 

still I have the feeling that the mod was aimed at making every spell useful.

Which is my point: it is useful. & as I noted above, useful shouldn't always mean "useful for the PCs". It can also mean "useful for the bad guys".

[Shaitan]

still I have the feeling that the mod was aimed at making every spell useful.

Which is my point: it is useful. & as I noted above, useful shouldn't always mean "useful for the PCs". It can also mean "useful for the bad guys".

Hmm there's a thought that really never occured to me Perhaps it's for the best to let it be without saving throws then...

[Raj]

AI knows when a party member reaches 20 hp, a player can only figure that so the usage is never optimal and when a enemy reaches that low another similar level spell or some direct damage prove more useful.

 

You can usually make an intelligent guess. In BG1, for instance, most "near death" creatures are going to be at 20 hp or less.

 

That's true for most BG2 guys who are not immune to sleep too but then, why should I invest a level 2 spell for a short lasting single target disable ( needs the target to be visible and without any spell defl/refl/globe on ) on a near death npc ? If I see a near death vulnerable guy ( or a badly wounded bg1/early SoA too ) there're better and more flexible options.

 

My point is that you could have the spell good for both pc and npc, without altering the AI and granting players one more realistically useful option

[Demivrgvs]

Power Word Sleep

I think both sides has valid points. I won't change this spell in V3, but I may add a sort of "controversial spells" component in the future, as I'd like to do for Shape Stone (my suggested replacement for Stone to Flesh).

 

Animate Dead/Create Undead

I think I'll rename the arcane's version of Animate Dead into Create Undead, just to make it more clear that it's slightly different now. I've worked a little on it this morning (as summons and familiars are the very last things to do), and as we discussed I've opted to replace skeletons with ghasts. Currently their stench ability is as per vanilla (on hit, -2 thac0 for a day), but I'd like to make it as per PnP (10' radius around the creature). Skeleton Warrior imo does not make any sense now, and thus the spell may summon only ghasts for now. I thought about adding mummies at higher levels, and a Mummy Lord would be fun as top summon at 18th level...but I fear a 10th level undead cleric with mummy's abilities is really too much for a 5th level spell.

 

Ghast (4 Hit Dice):

STR 17, DEX 16, CON -, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 10; AL Chaotic Evil

HP 48, AC 4, THAC0 16, Saving Throws 9/11/10/12/12

3 Attack Per Round, 1d8+2 Piercing Damage (Touch +1)

 

Combat Abilities:

Paralysis: target must save vs. death or be peralyzed for 5 rounds

Stench: ...

 

Special Qualities:

Immune to charm, confusion, disease, hold, poison, sleep, stun, & death effects

 

 

In theory I'd like to swap this spell with Summon Shadow, and give both spells to clerics. That would open up the Mummy Lord possibility imo, but I don't have a "animate dead II" bam right and perhaps it involve too much changes to be unanimously accepted.

[DavidW]

Just to add one last comment on the Power Word: Sleep issue: I think one of the best features of the AD&D spell system (and to a lesser extent the 3eDnD system) is its individuality. Because the spells were invented ad hoc rather than according to some kind of standardised template, there's an extraordinary range of options and not just "ok, this is the fifth level version of the Fire Bolt, so of course the damage is a little higher than the 4th level version and the save penalties are a bit bigger. Can't wait till I get the sixth level version".

 

For that reason, other things being equal I think there's a strong case for preserving idiosyncracies - in this case, the rule that power words don't give saving throws - where possible (and SR actually seems to do this pretty systematically).

[Raj]

Ghasts are interesting ( bad thac0/ac but good hp/attacks so I see them doing good against enemy casters, where little skeletons are more anti fighters fodder, to each its niche ) just how many of them is the spell going to summon?

 

I fear a 10th level undead cleric with mummy's abilities is really too much for a 5th level spell.

Indeed, but the idea is cool and could be rebalanced, does it really have to be 10th level?.

[Demivrgvs]

Power Word Sleep

For that reason, other things being equal I think there's a strong case for preserving idiosyncracies - in this case, the rule that power words don't give saving throws - where possible (and SR actually seems to do this pretty systematically).

Indeed I try to do my best on this matter, and I do agree on what you says about the D&D spell system's "individuality".

 

Create Undead

Ghasts are interesting ( bad thac0/ac but good hp/attacks so I see them doing good against enemy casters, where little skeletons are more anti fighters fodder, to each its niche ) just how many of them is the spell going to summon?

I don't know...I have to do some in-game tests. I'll try them against a few other summons to see how effective they are. Anyway I'd say 2-4 ghasts depending on caster's level.

 

I fear a 10th level undead cleric with mummy's abilities is really too much for a 5th level spell.

Indeed, but the idea is cool and could be rebalanced, does it really have to be 10th level?.

Yes...it should be more powerful than a skeleton warrior (which by the way is outstandingly powerful for a 3rd level spell), not to mentiot druids summon a 7th level priest (nymphs) as 4th level spell, and a mummy lord has to be a better spellcaster than that. Last but not least, in PnP mummy lords are extremely rare and powerful, and I don't want to upset the lore and make these creature too weak. As I said, I wouldn't make this creature available with a spell lower than 6th level (where 16HD elementals wait for good competition).

[Salk]

Just to add one last comment on the Power Word: Sleep issue: I think one of the best features of the AD&D spell system (and to a lesser extent the 3eDnD system) is its individuality. Because the spells were invented ad hoc rather than according to some kind of standardised template, there's an extraordinary range of options and not just "ok, this is the fifth level version of the Fire Bolt, so of course the damage is a little higher than the 4th level version and the save penalties are a bit bigger. Can't wait till I get the sixth level version".

 

For that reason, other things being equal I think there's a strong case for preserving idiosyncracies - in this case, the rule that power words don't give saving throws - where possible (and SR actually seems to do this pretty systematically).

 

I would also add this: provided that both AI and player have access to the very same spell, the fact that this spell has a different level of attractiveness only adds to the fun and breaks a streamlined strategy.

[Guest Guest]

How about some sort of "Lesser Mummy Lord"? Or would this just mean covering the lore in weak sauce?

[Demivrgvs]

How about some sort of "Lesser Mummy Lord"? Or would this just mean covering the lore in weak sauce?

Common mummies have 7 HD/levels, thus a mummy lord really can't have less than 8 - 10 HD/levels imo. Don't worry...with time and patience I'm sure I'll add more and more creatures to the various summoning spells available in BG.