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[Ardanis]

While I highly doubt there's a logical reason why spiders should be immune to magical instakill poison, for game balance's sake I'd make them fully immune. I didn't like the suggestion when it first sounded here, but after re-thinking I believe it is a good way to increase the appeal of summonable spiders, if only by a bit.

[Dakk]

For gameplay reasons, I'd agree with Ardanis. That also means Demi won't have to revert his own changes

[phordicus]

mmm. traditionally fire is a way to clear spider webs. what do you think of fire shield including immunity to web? would benefit efreeti and other fire creatures.

[urdjur]

Re: Spiders, I agree with Ardanis and Dakk. It would be nice if in-game spiders shared such immunities, but such consistency isn't mandatory IMO. Summoned fiends aren't identical to all in-game fiends either, no?

 

Re: Mordy Sword. Agree with Demi. The idea of a 2nd level Web entangling a hovering +4 sword of force is strange.

 

Long story short, djinn are flying creatures, and thus are unaffected by Entangle, Web, Grease and Earthquake, whereas efreet are affected by all of them (though they are not affected by fire-based spells).

 

I like this, it makes it more balanced IMO and both genies present you with different tactical options/combinations.

 

I just noticed djinn are not immune to Gust of Wind (and they should), and they should probably be immune to cloud spells too (shouldn't they? hm.gif ).

 

Which cloud spells? As elemental plane natives, I really think Djinn and Efreet should have the same basic immunities as other elementals, including Invisible Stalker (hold, poison, sleep, & stun effects). Anything immune to poison should in turn be immune to Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill. I'm not seeing why Djinn should be immune to Acid Fog or Incendiary Cloud though.

 

Re: Planetars: I think both planetars and devas should be immune to grease and web, mainly because it would be very sad otherwise considering their other more potent immunities. "I can't Imprison you, but you *will* fall to this pool of lard, you extraplanar creature, you!"

 

@Phordicus: I thought about that too - it's very fitting and PnP kosher, but I wonder if it will be difficult to implement. Anyone holding a flame weapon (MMM, Flame blade, certain items etc.) or having a fiery aura should really be immune to Web if these are the flammable PnP webs. Would be nice if the AI could use this counter too in that case. Otherwise, we'll have to accept that this is simply not your father's Web spell.

 

EDIT: On second thought, if Webs were flammable, you shouldn't be able to combine Incendiary Cloud and Web either so... I guess we can't have it all. Maybe it's simpler to just keep BG webs non-flammable. That way, djinn and efreet also get different immunities. Efreet in an Incendiary Cloud seems like a powerful tactical option, but so does Djinn in a web/grease/cloudkill matrix.

Edited January 31, 2011 by urdjur

[yarpen]

Aren't fireballs dispelling Web and Insects even now in SR3?

[Demivrgvs]

mmm. traditionally fire is a way to clear spider webs. what do you think of fire shield including immunity to web? would benefit efreeti and other fire creatures.

I thought about that too - it's very fitting and PnP kosher, but I wonder if it will be difficult to implement. Anyone holding a flame weapon (MMM, Flame blade, certain items etc.) or having a fiery aura should really be immune to Web if these are the flammable PnP webs. Would be nice if the AI could use this counter too in that case. Otherwise, we'll have to accept that this is simply not your father's Web spell.

 

EDIT: On second thought, if Webs were flammable, you shouldn't be able to combine Incendiary Cloud and Web either so... I guess we can't have it all. Maybe it's simpler to just keep BG webs non-flammable. That way, djinn and efreet also get different immunities. Efreet in an Incendiary Cloud seems like a powerful tactical option, but so does Djinn in a web/grease/cloudkill matrix.

Aren't fireballs dispelling Web and Insects even now in SR3?

No they don't within SR V3, because refinements such as this require custom secondary types. We started discussing them and their potential only when V3 was about to be released and I decided to leave such things for V4.

 

Speaking of "fire vs web", I'm still uncertain about it mainly because such feature would make much harder to "draw a line" between what we should/could do and what we shouldn't/can't. I think it's cool to have fireshield protect from web and insects, but I'm less sure about letting a simple flaming blade grant such immunity, whereas some players may start to ask it as soon as the former is implemented. In vanilla such doubts don't exist because there were no similar small details/refinements. Before SR no one would have complained about small things such as Entangle affecting incorporeal or flying creatures, whereas with SR we started to discuss all these small details and having a fire elemental destroyed by dehydrating spell like Horrid Wilting suddenly becomes unbearable.

 

Long story short, I like what we managed to accomplish and I'm favourable to continue in that direction, but I have to ponder if adding too many small refinements may end up being "a problem" rather than an asset.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[urdjur]

Before SR no one would have complained about small things such as Entangle affecting incorporeal or flying creatures, whereas with SR we started to discuss all these small details and having a fire elemental destroyed by dehydrating spell like Horrid Wilting suddenly becomes unbearable.

 

^This. Streamlining on a high level of detail might be the best compliment SR could get. It means you've already sorted out the big problems and we can start thinking about harmonizing aesthetics. Before, players we're complaining we had no roofs on buildings - now we're thinking about if the carpet should be burgundy or oxblood.

 

My opinion on this in general is that consistency and predictability are quite important. A player should be able to read a spell description and draw appropriate conclusions. For example, a player familiar with invisible stalkers, know that they are wispy and have a flying speed. Reading the web and grease spell descriptions, he will assume that they will be immune to these effects and plan accordingly. It would be good if SR ensured that this was the case. OTOH, reading the web spell description, nothing is said about fire negating it etc. so I don't think this would be as highly prioritized for v4 just because webs behave in this or that fashion in PnP or the real world.

[Dakk]

^This. Streamlining on a high level of detail might be the best compliment SR could get. It means you've already sorted out the big problems and we can start thinking about harmonizing aesthetics. Before, players we're complaining we had no roofs on buildings - now we're thinking about if the carpet should be burgundy or oxblood.

Demi: bringing perfection to BG - carpet by hand knitted carpet

Edited February 2, 2011 by Dakk

[Galactygon]

In vanilla such doubts don't exist because there were no similar small details/refinements. Before SR no one would have complained about small things such as Entangle affecting incorporeal or flying creatures, whereas with SR we started to discuss all these small details and having a fire elemental destroyed by dehydrating spell like Horrid Wilting suddenly becomes unbearable.

 

Cough cough.

 

-Galactygon

[Demivrgvs]

In vanilla such doubts don't exist because there were no similar small details/refinements. Before SR no one would have complained about small things such as Entangle affecting incorporeal or flying creatures, whereas with SR we started to discuss all these small details and having a fire elemental destroyed by dehydrating spell like Horrid Wilting suddenly becomes unbearable.

Cough cough.

You're right I could have said with "SR and Spellpack", but I was just trying to prove a point (that too many details/refinements might end up being a problem), it wasn't my intention to glorify a mod or another. Edited February 2, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[Ardanis]

Fireshields

Two near identical spells, both actively used by AI, yet not supposed to be stackable in PnP.

I suggest to perform the following move - move both resistance types to one spl (a-la NWN), and transform the other into Acid Sheath.

 

Know Opponent / Detect Alignment

What about Arcane Sight - detection of enemies' active combat/specific protections once per round for 1 turn? Shell system should allow for it.

[Ardanis]

Knock

Rename to Battering Ram?

[Demivrgvs]

Fireshields

Two near identical spells, both actively used by AI, yet not supposed to be stackable in PnP.

I suggest to perform the following move - move both resistance types to one spl (a-la NWN), and transform the other into Acid Sheath.

If I've understood correctly you're suggesting to remove the blue version with cold dmg, and add cold resistance to the other one, right? It kinda makes sense on paper as long as it doesn't interfere with the AI (and it shouldn't if properly done), and I never really liked much the concept behind the blu version, but regarding Acid Sheath (which in theory is a 5th lvl spell despite being almost identical to fireshields) I'm less interested. What's the point of removing one of the two stacking fireshields and then add another almost identical and stacking spell?

 

P.S on a side note, I would indeed like to open a spell slot for new 4th lvl spells, because I'd like to add Phantasmal Killer, and perhaps even Mordenkainen's Force Missile (there's really too few spells dealing magic dmg imo).

 

 

Know Opponent / Detect Alignment

What about Arcane Sight - detection of enemies' active combat/specific protections once per round for 1 turn? Shell system should allow for it.

In theory I'd obviously like such a feature for a Divination spell, but is it really possible? How? And would it be worth the effort? I mean, in a world where a single Breach removes EVERYTHING what could possibly serve knowing which specific/combat protection is still up?

 

The tweak to remove Stoneskin's silly color change slightly (very slightly) improves the appeal, but unless David implements my suggestion regarding pre-buffs (the one about removing all animations and text messages) you always know every spell and buff the target has.

 

 

Knock

Rename to Battering Ram?

Ahahaha, I can't believe it, I was thinking the same a couple of days ago (it's the spell that inspired my changes). In theory I was also thinking it should be an Evocation, as per PnP. As long as the changes doesn't bother anyone I'd go for it. Edited February 19, 2011 by Demivrgvs

[DavidW]

unless David implements my suggestion regarding pre-buffs (the one about removing all animations and text messages)

 

Funny you should say that.

[Dakk]

unless David implements my suggestion regarding pre-buffs (the one about removing all animations and text messages)

 

Funny you should say that.

.. oh no you didn't?