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[Salk]

While I also believe Conjuration spells should bypass MR in a perfect world, I fear this change would make Conjuration magic really stand out as the most effective school of magic by far. Since Conjuration is, in my opinion, already one of the most effective schools of magic, granting their spell such a strong feat as bypass MR might unbalance things (I, for once, would immediately create a specialist Conjurer )

Edited January 25, 2011 by Salk

[yarpen]

Nevertheless that item or creature owes its existence or connection to the current plane to an act of magic, you might say it is tethered or bound by magic. Thus a dismissal spell will banish summons and extra-planar creatures, even though they are "real". So presumably if an insect plague spell hit someone with high magic resistance and they passed their percentage check the insects would simply disappear in little puffs of smoke as the magic guiding and keeping them there is gone (same reason these spells have durations).

Then other summoned creatures should have the same thing. Think about Insect Plague as a creature, not as a spell. Also, summoning act is magical only in the moment of summoning stuff. BAM and there is Flame Arrow. And well, I think that Demi is right about Conjurations bypassing MR.

 

BUT, because there always has to be but. Are you sure that arrows should be conjurations? If there were a physical arrow which after casting appears in your equipment, no problem. But both spells works as a bolts already targeted on enemy. It looks a bit more Evocation to me.

[Dermit]

Then other summoned creatures should have the same thing. Think about Insect Plague as a creature, not as a spell. Also, summoning act is magical only in the moment of summoning stuff. BAM and there is Flame Arrow. And well, I think that Demi is right about Conjurations bypassing MR.

 

BUT, because there always has to be but. Are you sure that arrows should be conjurations? If there were a physical arrow which after casting appears in your equipment, no problem. But both spells works as a bolts already targeted on enemy. It looks a bit more Evocation to me.

 

Well, if it is only magical in the summoning act then why is there a spell duration for summons and would there be specific abjurations for dealing with them? Either way it is a balance first, magical logic question second kind of deal.

 

I would imagine that if the projectile were purely fire it would be evocation, but since it is a flaming arrow it wold more properly be an Evocation/Conjuration spell.

[Demivrgvs]

(It's also likely that the next SCS release will be significantly more sensitive to whether SR is installed, so that's also a reason to err on the side of being gung-ho in changes.

This is so awesome I'm getting all tingly thinking about it

Me too.

 

 

Just my two cents. Demi, no pressure or nothing, but I sincerely hope you don't get burnt out on modding in the near future. I'm looking forward to the day I can play a near perfect BG experience with IR,SR,KR (QR, CR?) and SCS.

I can assure you that despite my usual delays (they are my trademark!) I have no intention of stopping before at lest SR V4 and KR V1. As long as Ardanis is willing to work on it with me I would even dare to promise a QR/CR in the distant future, maybe this summer.

 

 

Conjuration spells bypassing magic resistance

While I also believe Conjuration spells should bypass MR in a perfect world, I fear this change would make Conjuration magic really stand out as the most effective school of magic by far. Since Conjuration is, in my opinion, already one of the most effective schools of magic, granting their spell such a strong feat as bypass MR might unbalance things (I, for once, would immediately create a specialist Conjurer )

Well, the list of spells that would be buffed isn't so long to drastically alter the school's appeal, not to mention I have plans for other schools as well (e.g. Evocation will probably get quite few spells with the underused cold and electricity energy type).

 

Currently the complete list of offensive Conjuration spells is:

* Grease

* Glitterdust

* Melf's Acid Arrow

* Flame Arrow

* Maze

Pretty thin don't you think? (also see below)

 

Are you sure that arrows should be conjurations? If there were a physical arrow which after casting appears in your equipment, no problem. But both spells works as a bolts already targeted on enemy. It looks a bit more Evocation to me.

Eh, you're preaching to the choir on this matter. I really never understood why Acid Arrow should be considered a Conjuration, especially considering that it doesn't deal any physical dmg (at least vanilla's Flame Arrow dealt a small amount of piercing dmg), and it isn't fired with a bow (in PnP it requires a 'to hit' roll, but how the hell did the caster fire it? With bare hands?!?). The concept behind these two spells surely strikes me as an Evocation, as they simply are a variant of Magic Missile with a different energy type. The only reason I'm reluctant to change Acid Arrow's school is that it has always been a Conjuration spell in every D&D edition.

 

Expanding this discussion, I always thought Web should instead be a Conjuration spell as per 3E rather than an Evocation. Why should it be an Evocation? I really don't think it's made of "magic energy" else spiders would be affected by it! Then, even most cloud spells strikes me as conjurations rather than Evocation (in fact, they all are within 3E), at least Stinking Cloud which cleary isn't made of any energy type.

 

On a side note, I've always noticed a particular pattern regarding acid based spells: almost none of them are Evocations. Acid Arrow, Vitriolic Sphere (which looks like an Evocation even more than Acid Arrow), and Acid Fog to name a few, are all Conjurations. Should I assume that within PnP acid is more "real" than "magical"?

 

Think about Insect Plague as a creature, not as a spell.

Exactly. Summoned animals don't have to bypass magic resistance to bite their targets, and insects are just like that, it's only that being hundreds of minute beings they don't roll a dice to hit your AC because it's given for granted that at least some of them always hit if the target is within the swarm, and they don't have an AC value because it's given for granted that you can't kill with a sword hundreds of flying small insects (thoguh you can instead damage many of them at once with a simple flaming torch). PnP explains very well this whole matter.

 

Well, if it is only magical in the summoning act then why is there a spell duration for summons and would there be specific abjurations for dealing with them?

The way I see it a Banishment spell doesn't directly affect the creature, but rather the link between him and its plane of origin, or the mental link between him and the caster. The spell's duration doesn't indicate how much the creature lives, but rather how long the caster can maintain the gate open (conjuration) and/or how much his mental influence can keep the creture on his side (summoning).

[Jarno Mikkola]

.Conjuration spells bypassing magic resistance

...

Well, the list of spells that would be buffed isn't so long to drastically alter the school's appeal, not to mention I have plans for other schools as well (e.g. Evocation will probably get quite few spells with the underused cold and electricity energy type).

 

Currently the complete list of offensive Conjuration spells is:

* Grease

* Glitterdust

* Melf's Acid Arrow

* Flame Arrow

* Maze

Pretty thin don't you think?

Not really, see the BG2 as a game has one elemental thing, and that's Edwin, who not only has +1 to all spells per level, but a +3 with(the +2 comes from) his amulet.

 

What comes to the Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrows, how do you think the caster is going to launch them, so they always hit... little hint; the mages Thac0 is the worst the game offers, which means that the answer is: Magic. Resistable magic.

 

Think about Insect Plague as a creature, not as a spell.

Exactly.

Well, it's not a creature, it's a mass of small creatures that the magic makes to move together.

I would say that a part of their effects should be avoidable with magic resistance, but not as a whole... don't ask what that would mean in games effects.

[Ardanis]

What comes to the Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrows, how do you think the caster is going to launch them, so they always hit... little hint; the mages Thac0 is the worst the game offers, which means that the answer is: Magic. Resistable magic.

Dear... Has the Imp just said something both comprehendable and logical?

 

 

For insects, imo fine if they ignore MR. They're quite nerfed already, and there aren't too many magic resistant enemies.

[Dakk]

What comes to the Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrows, how do you think the caster is going to launch them, so they always hit... little hint; the mages Thac0 is the worst the game offers, which means that the answer is: Magic. Resistable magic.

That's actually a pretty compelling argument...

[Galactygon]

Something I did was make the missile damage bypass MR but not the fire/acid damage. And I've made PfMW protect against those two spells as well.

 

-Galactygon

[Demivrgvs]

Conjuration spells bypassing magic resistance

...the list of spells that would be buffed isn't so long to drastically alter the school's appeal, not to mention I have plans for other schools as well (e.g. Evocation will probably get quite few spells with the underused cold and electricity energy type).

 

Currently the complete list of offensive Conjuration spells is:

* Grease

* Glitterdust

* Melf's Acid Arrow

* Flame Arrow

* Maze

Pretty thin don't you think?

Not really, see the BG2 as a game has one elemental thing, and that's Edwin, who not only has +1 to all spells per level, but a +3 with(the +2 comes from) his amulet.

Sorry I don't get how Edwin's absurd amount of spell slots is connected to my statement.

 

What comes to the Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrows, how do you think the caster is going to launch them, so they always hit... little hint; the mages Thac0 is the worst the game offers, which means that the answer is: Magic. Resistable magic.

My thought exactly, but that is just another reason the spell shouldn't belong to Conjuration, because launching real arrows with perfect accuracy sounds more like telekinesis, but surely it's not part of a school which is simply supposed to conjure/summon/create objects and creatures. At least 3rd edition Acid Arrow requires a 'to hit' roll. Long story short, to be true Conjuration spells Acid/Flame Arrows should work more like MMM imo, creating real arrows that can be thrown. The way they work in BG makes them Evocation spells imo.

 

That being said, I'm not particulary convinced of either "solutions" (making them bypass mr, or changing their school to Evocation).

 

Something I did was make the missile damage bypass MR but not the fire/acid damage. And I've made PfMW protect against those two spells as well.

Did you added missile dmg to Acid Arrow? Anyway, it would create a kinda noticeable exception to the rules followed by all other spells: either the spell's effects bypass mr or they don't. I'm not sure I like this solution.

 

Regarding PfMW protecting from them, it indeed makes sense if they are conjurations (thus real projectiles). For the very same reason I made SR's Protection from Missiles protect against these two spells.

[Dermit]

You are also conjuring up an invisible bow of infinite accuracy? :shrug:

[Jarno Mikkola]

That being said, I'm not particularly convinced of either "solutions" (making them bypass mr, or changing their school to Evocation).

How about; not doing a thing.

 

Regarding PfMW protecting from them, it indeed makes sense if they are conjurations (thus real projectiles). For the very same reason I made SR's Protection from Missiles protect against these two spells.

Isn't this sorta of a thing better for the Mantle spells ?

As the intention behinds the spell like the Protection from Normal Missile was to prevent the mages being constantly interrupted by things that are 20/1Gold Piece cheap. As that tactic is not actually intended to kill the mage, just prolong it's process until the melee guy comes to range and rips the mage wide open.

 

Sorry I don't get how Edwin's absurd amount of spell slots is connected to my statement.

When you balance the spells, you need to take into consideration all the parts of the game.

As for example: "How about making all daggers pierce the magical protections"(PfMW, Mantle, IMantle, Absolute Immunity)... "it's not like the game gave the dagger a lot of damage output, it's a piercing weapon after all..." - as the logic fails in that you can use backstab with the daggers, in BGII.

[onerous]

My party got his with a few disease effects that weren't cured with resting (thanks SCSII)

 

Is this a bug, or something legit but annoying?

It's SR's Symbol of Weakness, I've made all others disease effects not permanent at player's request but this one seems to still be permanent. In theory I don't like disease effects to go away on their own but I suppose I'll have to make this too go away with a rest.

 

A bit late, but I like having to cure diseases by casting cure disease spell or visiting a temple (and not by resting). Though temples don't have cure disease as their list of services, just restoration spells, which are pricey for not being level drained. I don't see what the big deal is. It really becomes a non-issue at higher levels when priest gain more spell lots.

[Dakk]

Would non-rest-cured diseases be possible as an component Demi?

[onerous]

The spell description for break enchantment is inaccurate in that it doesn't cure feeblemindedness (which is cured by a successful dispel magic). I haven't checked for curing sleep effects or confusion though (also cured by dispel magic). It does cure effects from curses such as the nasty curse I got from the deck of many things, so yay for that.

[Demivrgvs]

A bit late, but I like having to cure diseases by casting cure disease spell or visiting a temple (and not by resting). Though temples don't have cure disease as their list of services, just restoration spells, which are pricey for not being level drained. I don't see what the big deal is. It really becomes a non-issue at higher levels when priest gain more spell lots.

I think one of aVENGER's mods revises temples granting them more and better services. Ardanis also did a similar revision which will be part of IR V3.

 

Would non-rest-cured diseases be possible as an component Demi?

I'll think about it.

 

 

The spell description for break enchantment is inaccurate in that it doesn't cure feeblemindedness (which is cured by a successful dispel magic). I haven't checked for curing sleep effects or confusion though (also cured by dispel magic). It does cure effects from curses such as the nasty curse I got from the deck of many things, so yay for that.

This is a bug report rather than a suggestion. Anyway, the spell works fine against feeblemind, but it seems like it doesn't remove feeblemind portrait icon. I'll fix it asap.