Schoolless spells & HLAs

[SixOfSpades]

Schoolless spells

The "way things are done" in BG is that all Wizard spells of Levels 1-9 belong to 1 or 2 spell schools, but all the Wizard HLAs are schoolless, able to be learned and cast by any Specialist Mage. The exception is Wish, which claims to be of the Conjuration & Evocation schools, but is actually not flagged against any kit at all. Given the importance of this spell (especially its near-necessity in the final battle), I certainly wouldn't want to bar it from any of the Specialists. So, what to do with it?

 

1) Leave it alone, inconsistency be damned.

2) Make it an HLA, available to all Wizards. The 3 in-game scrolls of Wish will have to be removed/replaced, and Aesgareth's dialogue slightly adjusted, but this is minor.

3) Allow certain other 9th-Level spells to be schoolless as well, thus changing the rule. I have no problem with a 9th-Level spell being able to overcome the 5th-Level Spell Immunity, but I'd still rather that ability be limited to HLAs.

 

HLAs

I have my own ideas about revamping & rebalancing kits, and one of those is giving each Specialist Mage kit at least one unique HLA spell, not available to any other class or kit. A related idea involves changing some of the existing HLA to make them part of a school: Essential spells (like Improved Alacrity) and basic, non-spell-like abilities (like the Extra Spells) would remain schoolless, but Dragon's Breath could be Conjuration while Comet is made Evocation, etc., keeping the different kits' spellbooks distinct all the way up into HLA levels. Ideally, for each of the 8 schools, there would be 1 spell HLA of that school that could be chosen by any Wizard not of the Opposition school(s), and 1 spell HLA that would only be available to a Specialist of that school.

 

Feedback, please.

[Ardanis]

I have my own ideas about revamping & rebalancing kits, and one of those is giving each Specialist Mage kit at least one unique HLA spell, not available to any other class or kit. A related idea involves changing some of the existing HLA to make them part of a school: Essential spells (like Improved Alacrity) and basic, non-spell-like abilities (like the Extra Spells) would remain schoolless, but Dragon's Breath could be Conjuration while Comet is made Evocation, etc., keeping the different kits' spellbooks distinct all the way up into HLA levels. Ideally, for each of the 8 schools, there would be 1 spell HLA of that school that could be chosen by any Wizard not of the Opposition school(s), and 1 spell HLA that would only be available to a Specialist of that school.

Exactly what I had in mind when I've been revamping Refinements to better suit my taste. 16 HLA spells, two from each school, one available to all wizards (save those specializing in the opposite school), the second - to specialists.

[yarpen]

Sounds great, but you need two things: approval of Demi and ideas!

[Demivrgvs]

Schoolless spells

The "way things are done" in BG is that all Wizard spells of Levels 1-9 belong to 1 or 2 spell schools, but all the Wizard HLAs are schoolless, able to be learned and cast by any Specialist Mage. The exception is Wish, which claims to be of the Conjuration & Evocation schools, but is actually not flagged against any kit at all. Given the importance of this spell (especially its near-necessity in the final battle), I certainly wouldn't want to bar it from any of the Specialists. So, what to do with it?

 

1) Leave it alone, inconsistency be damned.

2) Make it an HLA, available to all Wizards. The 3 in-game scrolls of Wish will have to be removed/replaced, and Aesgareth's dialogue slightly adjusted, but this is minor.

3) Allow certain other 9th-Level spells to be schoolless as well, thus changing the rule. I have no problem with a 9th-Level spell being able to overcome the 5th-Level Spell Immunity, but I'd still rather that ability be limited to HLAs.

Well well, I've partialy confronted all of this since V1, but I've slightly changed it in later versions.

 

Within SR certain spells belong to the "Universal" school, and the complete list should be: Find Familiar, Simbul's Spell Matrix, Contingency, Simbul's Spell Sequencer, Limited Wish, Simbul's Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency. These spells imo don't seem to fit a particular school, and all them are also too important to be flagged as unavailable to some specialist. Don't you agree?

 

Regarding spells with two schools, I'd like to know players opinion. Sometime it makes sense (e.g. Lower Resistence seems fine both as Alteration and Abjuration) others it doesn't (e.g. Fire Shield should simply be Evocation imo). If you want me to make sure each spell belong to a single school I think I could it it.

 

HLAs

I have my own ideas about revamping & rebalancing kits, and one of those is giving each Specialist Mage kit at least one unique HLA spell, not available to any other class or kit. A related idea involves changing some of the existing HLA to make them part of a school: Essential spells (like Improved Alacrity) and basic, non-spell-like abilities (like the Extra Spells) would remain schoolless, but Dragon's Breath could be Conjuration while Comet is made Evocation, etc., keeping the different kits' spellbooks distinct all the way up into HLA levels. Ideally, for each of the 8 schools, there would be 1 spell HLA of that school that could be chosen by any Wizard not of the Opposition school(s), and 1 spell HLA that would only be available to a Specialist of that school.

As almost always I and Ardanis are very similar. My own intention is to do something like that (a la Refinements), though I still haven't understood if this belongs to SR or KR. Anyway, Refinements actually makes my job here much more easy as many ideas from that mod are quite good (I simply love Transmuter's Create Flesh Golem), and others simply "need" to be refined. Too bad it hasn't been developed anymore since ages, more work for me.

 

Speaking of pre-existing HLAs, probably since V2.9 (but surely within the current V3 Aranthys and Shaitan have) I've assigned them a school (though I've made Improved Alacrity belong to Universal school), and I do think they should have it.

 

Regarding Dragon's Breath and Comet, I really can't decide, I've made both Evocations, but I actually feel Comet may be a Conjuration as it doesn't manipulate any energy, it really conjures a real comet which deals crushing damage and bypasses magic resistance. My dream about Dragon's Breath is to not "limit" it to a red dragon's breath, but expand it to allow different types of elemental damage. The problems are 1) the animation 2) making it work via 2da a la Spell Immunity would probably break the AI. I can "fix" the latter by leaving the old HLA .spl file intact, and replace the new one on the appropriate HLA table (this way a new mod can use the new version, but an old one can still use the old reference).

[yarpen]

I think that Demi's right about Comet/Dragon's Breath. Dragon's Breath unleash pure energy transfered into fire explosion. Comet... comet summons real comet.

 

IMO wizard's and cleric's HLAs should be handled by Spell Revision. When we're talking about revising spellcasting system of BG2, it means also HLAs. Dragon Breath's versions are quite cool, but could be done via adding 4 spells (fire, cold, acid, electricity) instead of one with Select Spell. That's more script-friendly.

 

And I'm afraid that Spell Revision cries for new wizard scripts, especially after adding new spells. Why I hate most of spell-additions is that no one with exception of player is using them.

[Shaitan]

Yes Comet should IMO belong to the conjurationschool.

 

As should SR take care of HLA. I never tried Refinements so I really can't say if it is any good. Tough it'd be good with some copy-paste

[DavidW]

My dream about Dragon's Breath is to not "limit" it to a red dragon's breath, but expand it to allow different types of elemental damage. The problems are 1) the animation 2) making it work via 2da a la Spell Immunity would probably break the AI.

 

Bear in mind that this is a pretty substantial power upgrade. Fire resistance is relatively easy to counter; acid, less so. Add the fact that DB bypasses MR, and it's a pretty incredible weapon.

[Demivrgvs]

Dragon's Breath

My dream about Dragon's Breath is to not "limit" it to a red dragon's breath, but expand it to allow different types of elemental damage. The problems are 1) the animation 2) making it work via 2da a la Spell Immunity would probably break the AI.

 

Bear in mind that this is a pretty substantial power upgrade. Fire resistance is relatively easy to counter; acid, less so. Add the fact that DB bypasses MR, and it's a pretty incredible weapon.

I know I know, I think I've learned few things about spells lately. Anyway, there are various ways to keep it balanced while making it more interesting:

- the various PnP dragon's breathes don't deal the same damage (the red one is the most damaging one)

- the AoE may vary (fireball-like, linear, conse shaped)

 

But don't worry, it's clearly not an easy task, and there are a lot of things that will surely take precedence.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I think that Demi's right about Comet/Dragon's Breath. Dragon's Breath unleash pure energy transfered into fire explosion. Comet... comet summons real comet.

The Imp agrees.

 

Dragon Breath's versions are quite cool, but could be done via adding 4 spells (fire, cold, acid, electricity) instead of one with Select Spell. That's more script-friendly.

Yeah, no. What Demi is talking is to use the old HLA for the AI creatures while the player get's the new HLA with the Element selection. This is far more AI friendly don't you think. And besides we would run out of HLA spaces if we make all the HLA spells to have multiple spells.

 

Bear in mind that this is a pretty substantial power upgrade. Fire resistance is relatively easy to counter; acid, less so. Add the fact that DB bypasses MR, and it's a pretty incredible weapon.

Well, one can limit the power of the spell with decreasing the damage out put of the specific element effect. And by the way, the SP already has the Acid protection spell. Well, of course it might be hard for a good AI mod maker like yourself to adjust to that, so what would you suggest?

[Ardanis]

As far as vanilla HLAs go, I see them like this

Planetars - conjuration, as pure as it can ever be

Alacrity - transmutation

Energy Blades - evocation, same as Mordy, MMMs, BBoD, etc.

Comet - I counted it as evocation, but you're probably right about it's similarity to Acid/Flame Arrow spells

Dragon Breath - it does summon the dragon's head, so a certain aspect of conjuration is here, but given there're already two better candidates to that school then evocation it goes to

 

And by the way, the SP already has the Acid protection spell.

And? IIRC 'Protection from' spells only grant full invulnerability to magical spells, not breath weapons. And DB isn't just a DD spell, it has a wing buffet as well.

[Kalindor]

Honestly, I like what Refinements did with the Sorcerer HLA's. It differentiated them from wizards a bit. If you are going to redo all HLA's for the spellcasters, then I suggest similar measures.

[Demivrgvs]

As far as vanilla HLAs go, I see them like this

Planetars - conjuration, as pure as it can ever be

Alacrity - transmutation

Energy Blades - evocation, same as Mordy, MMMs, BBoD, etc.

Comet - I counted it as evocation, but you're probably right about it's similarity to Acid/Flame Arrow spells

Dragon Breath - it does summon the dragon's head, so a certain aspect of conjuration is here, but given there're already two better candidates to that school then evocation it goes to

Does Alcrity belongs to Alteration? I don't fully understand what is supposed to do...

 

Dragon's Breath though really doesn't struck me as a summon...do you think that a cut off translucent head of a dragon is an actual summoned dragon? Where's the rest of the body? I see it only as a visual effect, but I may be wrong.

 

And by the way, the SP already has the Acid protection spell.

And? IIRC 'Protection from' spells only grant full invulnerability to magical spells, not breath weapons. And DB isn't just a DD spell, it has a wing buffet as well.

Currently Protection from Fire doesn't fully protects from Dragon's Breath (as I think Ardanis is saying), because the immunity to wing buffet effect seems too much imo. It actually works as intended though, the character won't suffer damage, but blown away by the immense air blast.

 

 

Honestly, I like what Refinements did with the Sorcerer HLA's. It differentiated them from wizards a bit. If you are going to redo all HLA's for the spellcasters, then I suggest similar measures.

Yeah, Sorcerers will be almost like that within KR, they deserve to be completely different. Still, are you sure that would be SR material? Because that is a drastic revision of the class.

[Kalindor]

Yeah, Sorcerers will be almost like that within KR, they deserve to be completely different. Still, are you sure that would be SR material? Because that is a drastic revision of the class.

 

That's why I said "If you are going to redo the HLA's." I figured it would be more of a KR thing, but the talking about the Incredibly Broken Improved Alacrity made me think of how Sorcerers didn't get it in Refinements (a good idea) and how I liked the different flavor of sorcerers in Refinements, etc.

 

On a side note, now that I have held off on playing my next game for SR V3, I will be compelled to also wait for the new IR.

[Ardanis]

are you sure that would be SR material?

I'm pretty sure this entire thread should go to KR. Since tinkering with which HLAs should be obtainable by which kits doesn't feel fitting in here.

 

Alacrity

Like Hast/Slow and Timestop it deals with time. All of those belong to alteration school.

 

Dragon Breath

Well, I'm not fully sure myself...

[DavidW]

Bear in mind that this is a pretty substantial power upgrade. Fire resistance is relatively easy to counter; acid, less so. Add the fact that DB bypasses MR, and it's a pretty incredible weapon.

Well, one can limit the power of the spell with decreasing the damage out put of the specific element effect. And by the way, the SP already has the Acid protection spell. Well, of course it might be hard for a good AI mod maker like yourself to adjust to that, so what would you suggest?

 

I don't. I confine myself to pointing out problems. Constructive suggestions I leave to others.