Project Image

[Duckfeet]

Does it still give you free castings of everything in your spellbook when you cast the spell?

[Demivrgvs]

Yep, there's no way to make it work exactly as per PnP (where the clone "consumes" caster's spellbook when casting spells on its own).

 

I've "only" removed the cheesy exploits (the clone cannot use bard song, scrolls, quick items, ...).

 

If I'm not wrong Improved Anvil completely removes this spell considering it uber-powerful/cheesy, is this a common opinion?

[Ardanis]

As a matter of fact, I just don't give a damn about spell that roots me to one spot. Maybe an option to end it at will, then okay, otherwise not fun to get smacked around once they strip the invis down - even it brings me back to life, it might a bit too late, if they got as far as landing a hit on me.

 

Simulacrum imo was only good to take several shots with 7-8 spells then forget - it really is hard to control several casters at once, and I taboo any script more complicated than ~IF HitBy() OR EnemyWithinWeaponRange THEN Attack END~.

 

IF you want to kill both spells, personally I have no regrets.

 

PS Well, mindflyers and beholders in Underdark can deserve these spells, but still not a great loss imo.

[Demivrgvs]

IF you want to kill both spells, personally I have no regrets.

Don't get me wrong, this won't happen. I don't want to spoil players of such unique and fun spells, I was just trying to understand how players see these spells to see if there's something I should work on.

 

Maybe an option to end it at will...

Mmm...the only way I can imagine to implement it is granting a "self-destruct" innate ability to the image...and that would require innate abilities to be non-disabled again.

[Duckfeet]

I think it's cheesy. Making instant, fully-functional copies of yourself is fundamentally against the whole limited-spellbook thing. As for Simulacrum, the version in d20 takes 12 hours to create and costs at least 1000 XP. It doesn't exactly match up with "make a copy of yourself with a full spellbook memorised, at 60% level, 5 times a day, instantly at any time."

 

In fact sending minions way out of line of sight, to fight enemies long-distance can be considered an abuse of the AI if it can't figure out how to get to you and whup your ass. But that's another matter.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Maybe an option to end it at will...

Mmm...the only way I can imagine to implement it is granting a "self-destruct" innate ability to the image...and that would require innate abilities to be non-disabled again.

Not exactly no. The Clone could learn(and auto-memorize) a 10th level wizard spell called 'self-destruction'. Why 10th? Well you gain no XP.

Done this multiple time when I assigned wrong markers for the spell in my trial modings.

 

From what I see, the Simulacrum is OK(as long as the summon limit is 1, and it shouldn't have any of the same natural effect immunities as the original creature has... no vorpal immunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For example...). But For the Project Image... it's should have the those penalties, it should be dispel-able with Dispel Magic, True Sight even when the Spell Protected:Divination is in effect on the clone(or the clone could as well be not target-able by those spells), and the withdrawal should be 6 real seconds of stun and +30 more of fatigue.

[yarpen]

What about making wizard incapable of casting spells when Image can? You're letting your image to fight instead of you when saving your life. But how to make your spellcasting abilities back when Image is dead?

[Duckfeet]

Right, you can impose a non-dispellable percentage level drain on the caster after casting to reflect the juice invested into the clone. Hard to balance though.

[yarpen]

Gah, instead of it's still beter to drain spells instead of levels.

[Demivrgvs]

What about making wizard incapable of casting spells when Image can? You're letting your image to fight instead of you when saving your life. But how to make your spellcasting abilities back when Image is dead?

Are you still talking of Project Image? Because that's how it works...caster is held immobile while the image is around. Within v3 I also made the caster invisible to make the spell usable in the middle of a fight (it also make more difficult to exploit the "infinite spells" cheat via Spell Trap).

 

I can probably agree with Jarno that the image shouldn't be able to cast SI:Div on itself...actually, it doesn't even make too much sense that it can cast Stoneskin imo.

 

If you're talking of Simulacrum instead, I never found it too powerful as long, as you can't exploit it to create multiple clones.

 

Edit: looking at 3rd edition PnP description of PI I found this...

 

"If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you. The projected image can’t cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells. The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image."

[Duckfeet]

If you're talking of Simulacrum instead, I never found it too powerful as long, as you can't exploit it to create multiple clones.

 

You can still have the simulacrum toss spells into the original's spelltrap to get infinite spells, no?

 

Come to think of it, you could summon a Planetar and have THEM toss their spells into your spelltrap to recharge you too. Heck, just use a monster summoning to get a Spell Revisions Ogre Mage to give you his spells. So many ways to abuse the system...

 

Anyway it is an interesting exercise to think of "copy yourself" spells that don't break the game. Maybe some way to split the spells between yourself and the clone... iterate through the spell lists of both, give the even numbered ones to one and the odds to the other...?

[Demivrgvs]

You can still have the simulacrum toss spells into the original's spelltrap to get infinite spells, no?

That's doable yes, but only when the clone is able to cast 9th lvl spell to "refresh" your Spell Trap itself. Thus a PI clone can do it as soon as the mage is of 18th lvl, while Simulacrum can do it only when the mage reaches 5.000.000xp.

 

Come to think of it, you could summon a Planetar and have THEM toss their spells into your spelltrap to recharge you too. Heck, just use a monster summoning to get a Spell Revisions Ogre Mage to give you his spells. So many ways to abuse the system...

Ok, you know what, I'll try to think of way to revise Spell Trap. It may be part of a separate component (NWN-style Spell Deflection) I had in mind for v4. Look here if you want to know more about it.

 

Not only the current Spell Trap is heavily exploitable, but I actually think that such thing is the "best thing" about it, because not a single SCS mage will ever cast a spell at you under Spell Trap, and casting Spell Deflection protects you in the very same way.

 

Anyway it is an interesting exercise to think of "copy yourself" spells that don't break the game. Maybe some way to split the spells between yourself and the clone... iterate through the spell lists of both, give the even numbered ones to one and the odds to the other...?

It may be doable via script...but only to a lesser extent (e.g. PI casts a spell and caster lose a spell of the its higher lvl, not necessarily the same). Anyway, I don't like sub-optimal solutions, and I actually think that the current PI isn't too OP against a good AI like SCS or RR which I'm sure would destroy it with thief's Detect Illusion, True Seeing or Dispel Magic.

 

It's still really OP though if the player casts it far from the battlefield, if the clone is allowed to protect itself via SI:Div, and if the opponents have no anti-illusion spells. That's why I'm all for implementing PnP restrictions (The projected image can’t cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells) as long as it doesn't interfere with the AI. It would make the spell much less OP (no Stoneskin, SI:Div, PfMW) and more characteristic (it would have to rely on illusionary protections (Ghost Armor, Mirror Image, Blur).

[Galactygon]

The best thing really, is to beg for an .exe patch for the image to cast spells right out of the wizard's spell book (ie casting some spell removes one instance of that spell from PUPPETMASTER).

 

-Galactygon

[Duckfeet]

...stuff...

 

You're right, it's Spell Trap that's OP. If there's going to be a spell that recharges your spells I'd rather have it be some kind of Larloch's Minor Drain for spells, e.g. cast a level 7 spell, which steals your opponent's highest level spell and recharges you with 6 spell levels.

 

For the Projected Image, sure it's not going to last very long if you don't have spell protections running. But then if it's too gimped I won't cast it in combat anyway. That's the problem with it, the thing that makes it overpowered we can't fix, so if we try to balance it we have to gimp it to hell such that Wizard Eye is even better than it.

[Guest Guest]

For the Projected Image, sure it's not going to last very long if you don't have spell protections running. But then if it's too gimped I won't cast it in combat anyway. That's the problem with it, the thing that makes it overpowered we can't fix, so if we try to balance it we have to gimp it to hell such that Wizard Eye is even better than it.

 

How about just making the Projected Image equivalent in power to a Simulacrum clone? (I.e., it's created with 60% of the caster's levels.) That would remove its ability to cast every spell in your spellbook for free without having to monkey with the mechanics too much, and it would make the Simulacrum spell clearly superior to the lower-level PI.