Acronym trouble.

[Keldor]

The posts in these forums are chock-a-block full of acronyms which make comprehension all but impossible for newbies (and thus excludes them i.e. it's inconsiderate and unwelcoming). I've played these games for years and still find myself struggling and enormously frustrated (hence this post).

 

I've searched for 'Acronyms' and failed to find a post that explains them. The comments I did find indicate that I'm not the first person to suffer this problem (which is often compounded by typos and poor grammar). I realise that no one's perfect but this is especially true of newbies.

 

Please can we have a permanent acronym explanation post? If there's one already, can someone please direct me to it?

[berelinde]

http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11751

 

That's one. This one is better:

http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=17604.0;wap2

 

Google is your friend.

[Keldor]

Thanks. They are better than the nothing we have here (a very surprising and sad state of affairs). Unfortunately they include a great many acronyms that aren't used here, a great many that are not specific to the modding community, and has a great many missing from it - see the last post.

 

A permanent Wiki (user-alterable) post here is what I suggest we need. I'll happily in-put all the acronyms I come across here that I don't understand. I might even bring over the appropriate ones from those lists you provided a link for.

Google is your friend.

Speak for yourself. Google is just one of many search engines and I know for a fact that it allows hateful films on YouTube because they don't contravene its terms of use policy - despite complaints e.g. there is a film on there of a gang of youths assaulting and seriously injuring a boy which Google refused to remove following a request by the victim's mother.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Thanks. They are better than the nothing we have here (a very surprising and sad state of affairs). Unfortunately they include a great many acronyms that aren't used here, a great many that are not specific to the modding community, and has a great many missing from it - see the last post.

What last post...

But if you create a list of words, we will say what each means. And if there's enough intrest, it will be pinned, easy ?

[Keldor]

Thanks. They are better than the nothing we have here (a very surprising and sad state of affairs). Unfortunately they include a great many acronyms that aren't used here, a great many that are not specific to the modding community, and has a great many missing from it - see the last post.

What last post...

The last post on the page of the 2nd link provided by berelinde (the 'better' one).

But if you create a list of words, we will say what each means. And if there's enough intrest, it will be pinned, easy ?

Not really because it won't be a Wiki which can be updated on the one page but a thread that will continually advance in such a way that anyone who doesn't know any acronym that isn't on the first page will have to read through the entirety of what will quickly become an extensive sprawling thread. Take a look at how the equivalent 'solution' to this problem worked out in the thread shown in the first link as it evolved. It wasn't long before some smart aleck posted a 'witty' comment about the missing 'most obvious' acronym. This prompted a question post, followed by an incorrect answer post, followed by the correct answer post - all for a single acronym. Do you have any idea how user-unfriendly such threads are? Please note that the home page for this site (somewhere) welcomes newbies and states that the site isn't just for experienced modders. If this is truly the case, why do so many members act as if everyone is an experienced modder by using acronyms so freely?

 

You might also want to consider how overwhelming this site looks to newbies seeking to learn anything. It's a sprawling mess. I've noticed several posts from newbies remarking on this and writing that they feel overwhelmed.

 

Lastly, there is the routine sarcastic responses to newbies that members like you and berelinde demonstrate in this very thread i.e. "Google is your friend", the obvious implication being that my post was actually redundant because 'everyone knows how to Google' (so why don't you?), and your "Easy?" question suggesting that I'm somehow being idiotic to make this request. I've seen a lot of these snarky and arrogant replies since I returned here recently and they're not welcoming or indicative of any willingness to help.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Not really because it won't be a Wiki which can be updated on the one page but a thread that will continually advance ...

The first post of the thread can be updated every time a word is asked... it's just a little question of permissions that the administration can allow a member to do. Or forum policy.

 

You might also want to consider how overwhelming this site looks to newbies seeking to learn anything. It's a sprawling mess. I've noticed several posts from newbies remarking on this and writing that they feel overwhelmed.

If you are so overwhelmed... maybe you could step back and read the actual forum... a few times before you go and shoot accusatory statements you know so much about. As you know, I and a few of the other old members of this forum were born with the knowledge of the entire moding community and there is nothing we don't know about it.

That's irony.

 

I've seen a lot of these snarky and arrogant replies since I returned here recently and they're not welcoming or indicative of any willingness to help.

Or you are not reading the text as it's meant... as you didn't ask a single word even though I said I could answer the question...

[Daulmakan]

Not really because it won't be a Wiki which can be updated on the one page but a thread that will continually advance in such a way that anyone who doesn't know any acronym that isn't on the first page will have to read through the entirety of what will quickly become an extensive sprawling thread.

There already was a Wiki on G3, and another one on Spellhold Studios. IIRC, both of them caused technical issues with those sites and both of them were deemed not worth it of the resources they commanded.

 

Do you have any idea how user-unfriendly such threads are? Please note that the home page for this site (somewhere) welcomes newbies and states that the site isn't just for experienced modders. If this is truly the case, why do so many members act as if everyone is an experienced modder by using acronyms so freely?

It doesn't require an experience modder to recognize acronyms, a player familiarized with mods and the IE sites can do just as well. And such players and modders are the ones who most frequently post, so. Newbies who can't follow can always educate themselves by reading more threads or just asking.

 

You might also want to consider how overwhelming this site looks to newbies seeking to learn anything. It's a sprawling mess. I've noticed several posts from newbies remarking on this and writing that they feel overwhelmed.

All the experienced modders and players were newbies once, it's nothing out of the ordinary. The information you want is out there, it just takes time and effort to familiarize with it.

 

Lastly, there is the routine sarcastic responses to newbies that members like you and berelinde demonstrate in this very thread i.e. "Google is your friend", the obvious implication being that my post was actually redundant because 'everyone knows how to Google' (so why don't you?), and your "Easy?" question suggesting that I'm somehow being idiotic to make this request. I've seen a lot of these snarky and arrogant replies since I returned here recently and they're not welcoming or indicative of any willingness to help.

Funny you should say that. I thought Berelinde was kind enough to use "Google is your friend", which is a more considerate and welcoming version of "RTFM" (a lot more scolding). Trying to grasp most of the Infinity Engine stuff at once is certainly overwhelming, so don't try to do it in one quick try. I've played and modded a bit on the side for several years and still I don't get most of it.

 

Here's another link on file formats of the IE games and their acronyms.

[Keldor]

The first post of the thread can be updated every time a word is asked... it's just a little question of permissions that the administration can allow a member to do. Or forum policy.

Yeah right - 'Just a little question'. There's NOTHING on this site to indicate that this happens. Instead there are innumerable cases of extremely long threads, expending repeatedly, over YEARS.

 

If you are so overwhelmed... maybe you could step back and read the actual forum... a few times before you go and shoot accusatory statements you know so much about.

I HAVE taken a step back and read the actual forum - don't patronise me. My ‘accusatory statements’ are correct. If they aren’t, demonstrate to me that the site doesn’t have huge numbers of extensive threads compiled over years, with links embedded within them to other sites and other places on this site. You won’t be able to do it. Also, I've seen others saying similar things to what I’ve said.

 

 

As you know, I and a few of the other old members of this forum were born with the knowledge of the entire moding community and there is nothing we don't know about it.

That's irony.

No it isn't - it's sarcasm. I noticed you were one of the regulars who were snotty towards posters most often (newbies and regulars alike) - and you're at it again with me.

 

I've seen a lot of these snarky and arrogant replies since I returned here recently and they're not welcoming or indicative of any willingness to help.

Or you are not reading the text as it's meant... as you didn't ask a single word even though I said I could answer the question...

Don't talk rubbish. When you add 'easy?' to the end of your answer you're implying that I'm a fool for having asked the question. When a poster writes that 'Google is your friend' (not her friend) she's clearly implying I should just have used Google. Now I've explained why these replies have been snarky twice perhaps you'll have the strength of character to accept it and apologise (although I doubt it).

 

Also, I don't need to post any particular acronyms to make a comment to the effect that a pinned acronyms page is needed.

[Keldor]

It doesn't require an experience modder to recognize acronyms, a player familiarized with mods and the IE sites can do just as well. And such players and modders are the ones who most frequently post, so.

Is this thread about putting up a page of acronyms for those "familiarized with mods and the IE sites"? No it isn't. I'm familiar with many of these sites and I still struggle with many of the acronyms. One reason for this is that members often make their own acronyms up relative only to their own post. Moreover, this is a modding website that claims to be for non-modders as much as for experts. I've been playing RPG's (Role Playing Games) for years, and playing the BG (Baldur's Gate) series for years. I am not, however, a modder and I have no idea of the tools used which are habitually referred to with acronyms.

Newbies who can't follow can always educate themselves by reading more threads or just asking.

Obviously they can but a page would make it easier, and save members from repeatedly having to help newbies with the same questions, wouldn't it? What are you lot, a committee to provide reasons why such a page shouldn't be put up?

All the experienced modders and players were newbies once, it's nothing out of the ordinary. The information you want is out there, it just takes time and effort to familiarize with it.

Yes, thanks for that statement of the obvious, Sherlock. I didn't say the information wasn't out there. I've already replied to the effective comment - 'Just Google it'. What don't you get about the concept of a helpful acronym page right HERE, in one place?

Funny you should say that. I thought Berelinde was kind enough to use "Google is your friend", which is a more considerate and welcoming version of "RTFM" (a lot more scolding).

So because what she said could have been worse, it was acceptable, was it? She was effectively telling me that I'd made a stupid point and could instead go off and find the answers as well as she did - only she didn't do a very good job of it, and her 'solution' won't help the next newbie who comes here with the same problem.

Trying to grasp most of the Infinity Engine stuff at once is certainly overwhelming, so don't try to do it in one quick try.

Again, thanks for that statement of the obvious. I haven't been trying to do this all at once. I've spent about 30 hours over the last 4 days perusing this site; and my conclusion is that there is an ingrained culture of using acronyms here such that an acronym explanation page would be helpful not just for me but for the future use of the site by others.

Here's another link on file formats of the IE games and their acronyms.

I'm not sure you understand the idea I'm getting at. I've made my recommendation. Thank you for providing me with that link but wouldn't it be nice if this community set up a page so that newbies didn't have to request them?

[lynx]

TLDR;

 

What's so inherently wrong with year-long debates?

 

If you want to see proof of updated stickies, just check any of the actively developed mod's subforum. Item revisions (IR) is an excelent example, as the first post is the summary of the whole thread, while being much more complex than just an acronym list.

Furthemore, if you dislike whole threads, posts could be deleted as soon as the referenced acronyms are added to the first one.

 

And on another note. Community is not "everyone else", you're also part of it even if you're just using its work as an anonymous coward or trolling. But this is all based on voluntary work, so if you want something done, either be proactive and DIY (do it yourself) or motivate others to do it for you. The latter is usually unlikely, but you've made it even harder. Good luck with that.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Speaking of acronyms what is TLDR? Can't say I'm up to speed with the latest 1337 1|ng0.

[Keldor]

TLDR;

What does TLDR stand for?

What's so inherently wrong with year-long debates?

Nothing. Did I say there was? I was pointing out how massive threads get increasingly complicated - especially when the newbie doesn't understand the acronyms being used; and they digress, such that they are incredibly daunting to other newbies wanting to learn what the acronyms are. That is why I suggested a Wiki is what is needed.

If you want to see proof of updated stickies, just check any of the actively developed mod's subforum. Item revisions (IR) is an excelent example, as the first post is the summary of the whole thread, while being much more complex than just an acronym list.

Yes? So where is it? I use the search function and find 20 pages, search results (of forums only) limited to the first 1000, and 5 separate threads for ‘item revisions’ with nearly 1000 replies on page 1 alone! Now, the first post of IRv3 beta (which (Beta) does not signify a finalised item) links to a download without a ReadMe. There’s nothing there to indicate that the following pages of the thread do not need to be read.

The first post of the second thread on Item Revisions requests feedback and, as before, does not indicate that the following 365 replies needn’t be read.

The first post of the third thread (with a title that suggests IRv3 Beta is flawed) similarly gives no indication that the following 13 replies don’t need to be read. The link goes to a download, again with no ReadMe.

 

Need I go on? This doesn’t seem to be very excellent to me.

 

 

Furthermore, if you dislike whole threads, posts could be deleted as soon as the referenced acronyms are added to the first one.

How can I delete other people’s posts?

 

And on another note. Community is not "everyone else", you're also part of it even if you're just using its work as an anonymous coward or trolling.

How dare you? What grounds have you got to suggest that? And how am I 'using the work here' to do anything? I’ve made a suggestion and received nothing but negative responses and implied insults – and you dare to suggest that I’m a troll for pointing this out?

 

But this is all based on voluntary work, so if you want something done, either be proactive and DIY (do it yourself) or motivate others to do it for you. The latter is usually unlikely, but you've made it even harder. Good luck with that.

How could I POSSIBLY add a Wiki to this site? Are you insane or just deliberately trying to frustrate me i.e. acting like a troll? Good luck indeed! I know where I stand with the likes of you. I didn't ask you for anything, and I won't in future. Then, who are you to speak for the entire community when you suggest I've made it even harder? Just because you haven't got the intelligence to see that it's me who has been mistreated here, doesn't mean that everyone else hasn't. Did I call you a troll? Did I call you cowardly?

[berelinde]

OK, the only actual abuse going on here occurred in the post directly above this one.

 

G3 (Gibberlings 3) has fairly tolerant moderation habits. We understand that people tend to use informal language. We do not tolerate attacks against individual members.

[lynx]

If you want to see proof of updated stickies, just check any of the actively developed mod's subforum. Item revisions (IR) is an excelent example, as the first post is the summary of the whole thread, while being much more complex than just an acronym list.

Yes? So where is it? I use the search function and find 20 pages, search results (of forums only) limited to the first 1000, and 5 separate threads for ‘item revisions’ with nearly 1000 replies on page 1 alone! Now, the first post of IRv3 beta (which (Beta) does not signify a finalised item) links to a download without a ReadMe. There’s nothing there to indicate that the following pages of the thread do not need to be read.

The first post of the second thread on Item Revisions requests feedback and, as before, does not indicate that the following 365 replies needn’t be read.

The first post of the third thread (with a title that suggests IRv3 Beta is flawed) similarly gives no indication that the following 13 replies don’t need to be read. The link goes to a download, again with no ReadMe.

 

Need I go on? This doesn’t seem to be very excellent to me.

Nothing?

IRv3 beta: the first post was last updated two days ago. The subtitle clearly reinfoces what the post says - it contains the download link.

Feedback: why would knowing other people's feedback be a prerequisite to giving your own? In fact it should be discuraged, since it can skew your views.

Known beta issues: both the edit time and the subtitle show how recent the information is. In this case, it would be common curtesy to read all the replies since the last update (to spare them the work of dealing with nplicated reports).

 

Pretty good for a semirandom pick. I had the "IR V3" one in mind, but these are apparently perfect too.

 

Furthermore, if you dislike whole threads, posts could be deleted as soon as the referenced acronyms are added to the first one.

How can I delete other people’s posts?

As I'm sure you already know, you cannot do that unless you get moderator or administrator privileges. Not that it would be so important for this implementation detail, as there are already many with such rights.

 

And on another note. Community is not "everyone else", you're also part of it even if you're just using its work as an anonymous coward or trolling.

How dare you? What grounds have you got to suggest that? And how am I 'using the work here' to do anything? I’ve made a suggestion and received nothing but negative responses and implied insults – and you dare to suggest that I’m a troll for pointing this out?

How dare you? What grounds have you got to suggest that?

You're putting words in my mouth (again?). If you want to know what inspired this combination, search for another acronym, IA or since the search will barf on that: iav6.

 

But this is all based on voluntary work, so if you want something done, either be proactive and DIY (do it yourself) or motivate others to do it for you. The latter is usually unlikely, but you've made it even harder. Good luck with that.

How could I POSSIBLY add a Wiki to this site? Are you insane or just deliberately trying to frustrate me i.e. acting like a troll? Good luck indeed! I know where I stand with the likes of you. I didn't ask you for anything, and I won't in future. Then, who are you to speak for the entire community when you suggest I've made it even harder? Just because you haven't got the intelligence to see that it's me who has been mistreated here, doesn't mean that everyone else hasn't. Did I call you a troll? Did I call you cowardly?

If you insist on a wiki, you can add it somewhere else and it can be linked here. As we're trying to point out, the forum would work for this purpose too. (ok, my opinion is that it would work better, since you wouldn't need to register or deal with spam)

And I am not and cannot be speaking on behalf of the community. What I said was that *you* made it harder for *yourself* to get help with the acronym quest. A pity, really, because by now the list could've been populated already.

[Daulmakan]

Is this thread about putting up a page of acronyms for those "familiarized with mods and the IE sites"? No it isn't. I'm familiar with many of these sites and I still struggle with many of the acronyms. One reason for this is that members often make their own acronyms up relative only to their own post.

If everyone makes their own acronyms (I don't agree), what would be the point in having a centralised acronym resource then?

 

I am not, however, a modder and I have no idea of the tools used which are habitually referred to with acronyms.

Maybe you could just ask what does X or Y mean?

 

Obviously they can but a page would make it easier, and save members from repeatedly having to help newbies with the same questions, wouldn't it? What are you lot, a committee to provide reasons why such a page shouldn't be put up?

I tried to provide you with the fact that similar things to what you're demanding (wiki) already happened and then vanished. Which is to say, it's not likely of happening again very soon, so doing it the 'hard' way will probably end up being faster.

 

Yes, thanks for that statement of the obvious, Sherlock. I didn't say the information wasn't out there. I've already replied to the effective comment - 'Just Google it'. What don't you get about the concept of a helpful acronym page right HERE, in one place?

Elementary, my dear Watson. Acronym pages were already linked to you. As to why there aren't more, it's because nobody deemed them necessary enough to either do them in the first place or maintain them.

 

So because what she said could have been worse, it was acceptable, was it?

'Acceptable' in forum terms is a subjective beast. You probably feel overwhelmed and disrespected by some of the statements made by others in this thread, while probably all those others feel you're overreacting. Who's right? And more important, is everyone else likely to change to suit your opinion/needs?

 

and her 'solution' won't help the next newbie who comes here with the same problem.

Newbies come everytime, they came before, and they will come in the future too. The issue in question never proved to be insurmountable or anything of the like. Rather, I'd say the way of approaching such problems or 'bumps in the road', so to speak, bears more significance.

 

Again, thanks for that statement of the obvious. I haven't been trying to do this all at once. I've spent about 30 hours over the last 4 days perusing this site; and my conclusion is that there is an ingrained culture of using acronyms here such that an acronym explanation page would be helpful not just for me but for the future use of the site by others.

That's pretty much what I meant. 4 days might seem like a lot if you are in some kind of hurry. I didn't learn exactly what a BAM was until several months passed, for example. I didn't dare install more than a couple of mods until after several playthroughs, and so on.

 

 

Speaking of acronyms what is TLDR? Can't say I'm up to speed with the latest 1337 1|ng0.

Too Long, Didn't Read.