Rebalancing Vorpal effects

[polytope]

I've been unsatisfied for a while about the behaviour of Vorpal weapons in BG2, both when used by and against (Balors, enemy mages' Dark Planetars) the player. In the vanilla game they either allowed a save vs death with a varying penalty or in some cases (the Ravager halberd and the aforementioned Balors) killed with a % chance and no saving throw whatsoever.

In the former case the danger of enemy vorpal attacks is obviated once the player reaches a level where they can always make their save vs death (which varies depending on class, race and certain items like the Periapt of Life Protection), in the latter case - unsaveable vorpals - protecting from the vorpal threat requires certain class-exclusive abilities like the rogue HLA Avoid Death or arcane Protection from Magic Weapons, frustrating those classes who lack such (and with AI improving mods you can be sure that the balor will switch targets if his intended victim casts ProMW, meaning you need to keep the rest of your party out of his line of sight).

Neither of these situations is particularly good design or adds to the gameplay as the threat level of an enemy with a vorpal weapon either drops dramatically once you're past a critical level or you are forced to confront them only with specific characters. SCS and aTweaks both allowed Death Ward to block vorpal instadeath but this seems conceptually wrong to me (protection from death magic shouldn't affect the severing power of a vorpal sword, no more than it prevents a fatal backstab) and is still highly dependent on party levels, since balors usually throw a high-level remove magic at you, easily dispelling Death Ward for most SoA parties.

So I decided to redesign vorpal mechanics entirely.

With this mini mod vorpal proc will trigger on a % of hits varying by the weapon, but affecting only those who are at 50% hitpoints or less. This reduces the margin of safety you have when meleeing a vorpal armed enemy, relative to a comparably damaging creature without this ability, but doesn't make it either a tactical irrelevance if your death saving throw is negative or put you at risk of being one-shotted as it was before.

Incidentally, Stoneskin/Ironskin can now foil vorpal weapons as per the 2nd edition description "Even a sword of sharpness cannot affect a creature protected by stoneskin".

The breakdown of vorpal probability is as follows:

• Axe of the unyielding 5% of hits (it was the least likely to score a vorpal hit even in vanilla)
• Silver Sword & Planetars' Swords 10%
• Ravager Halberd & Fallen Solars' Swords 15%
• Balors' Swords 20%

Posting this in the Stratagems forum because it's most likely to be of interest to players with SCS & Ascension, vorpal capable enemies are very rare in vanilla: Two Balors in Watcher's Keep, possibly more at the Throne, and one Fallen Solar (whose sword, unlike the Balors' allows a save vs death). If you want to use it extract the rar and run polyvorp like any other Weidu mod.

polyvorp.rar

[Salk]

Hello!

I installed this nice modification of yours and I discovered it overrides the Axe of Unyielding's, the Silver Sword's and the Ravager's item description. Since I am a Item Revisions Revised user this cause a rather big compatibility problem, especially with the Halberd's properties because Item Revisions (Revised) removes the Vorpal effect from it.

For the next version, could you please take this in consideration? 

Thanks!

[polytope]

On 11/5/2022 at 7:53 PM, Salk said:

I installed this nice modification of yours and I discovered it overrides the Axe of Unyielding's, the Silver Sword's and the Ravager's item description. Since I am a Item Revisions Revised user this cause a rather big compatibility problem, especially with the Halberd's properties because Item Revisions (Revised) removes the Vorpal effect from it.

Yes, item descriptions are updated, although items themselves are modified through patch rather than overwriting. I assumed that players who didn't like this aspect of vorpal weapons would either use my own modifications or Item Revisions, which iirc also attempts to balance and standardize vorpal weapons. I've made compatibility allowances for Ascension, SCS, and aTweaks provided polvorp comes last in the install order, but I'm genuinely surprised that players want to combine my mods with Item Revisions or Spell Revisions (which I discovered led to a different bug with Revised Dispel Magic).

Although I see IR turns the vorpal Ravager halberd into a poisonous halberd that dooms the target (?).

Since the halberd should not be modified at all if not a vorpal weapon, the TP2 will need to be appended to skip if ~dvdoom.spl~ exists in the override, for now, a player's options are to either:

• Install IR before polyvorp, but firstly comment out this section of item_rev-> components -> main_component.tpa:

// Ravager +4
COPY ~item_rev/itm/halb10.itm~      ~override/halb10.itm~         
SAY NAME1 @1493
SAY NAME2 @1538
SAY UNIDENTIFIED_DESC @1495
SAY DESC @1539

LAF tooltips INT_VAR $tip(1)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@1538) $tip(2)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@4024) STR_VAR item=halb10 END

// Ravager +5
COPY ~item_rev/itm/halb11.itm~      ~override/halb11.itm~         
SAY NAME1 @1493
SAY NAME2 @1540
SAY UNIDENTIFIED_DESC @1495
SAY DESC @1541

LAF tooltips INT_VAR $tip(1)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@1540) $tip(2)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@4024) STR_VAR item=halb11 END

Modifying it like so:

Spoiler

 

/*
// Ravager +4
COPY ~item_rev/itm/halb10.itm~      ~override/halb10.itm~         
SAY NAME1 @1493
SAY NAME2 @1538
SAY UNIDENTIFIED_DESC @1495
SAY DESC @1539

LAF tooltips INT_VAR $tip(1)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@1538) $tip(2)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@4024) STR_VAR item=halb10 END

// Ravager +5
COPY ~item_rev/itm/halb11.itm~      ~override/halb11.itm~         
SAY NAME1 @1493
SAY NAME2 @1540
SAY UNIDENTIFIED_DESC @1495
SAY DESC @1541

LAF tooltips INT_VAR $tip(1)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@1540) $tip(2)=RESOLVE_STR_REF (@4024) STR_VAR item=halb11 END
*/

 

If done this way, you will instead have a vorpal halberd balanced in line with other vorpal weapons in polyvorp.

• Install IR after polyvorp, then you will have the IR version of the halberd, which is poisonous rather than vorpal, as well as IR versions of the other vorpal weapons usable by players, only enemy melee attacks will be modified (This is no good for SCS or aTweaks players, who should install my mod last! IR should also come before SCS in the installation order).

ETA: The current version of my Revised Dispel Magic mod is best installed before SCS, contrary to the modifications to demiliches and vorpal weapons which should come after, future versions (if any) should be more flexible regarding install order.

Edited November 7, 2022 by polytope

[Salk]

Thanks for the recommendation, polytop!

I actually spoke about your nice polyvorp modification with IRR's author ( @Bartimaeus) and he also appreciates it and believes that IR(R) and polyvorp can actually co-exist. With the obvious caveat of the Ravager weapon, of course.

The vorpal mechanic itself could easily be used by Item Revisions items that include a vorpal effect, after all, right?

Cheers! 
 

[polytope]

19 hours ago, Salk said:

The vorpal mechanic itself could easily be used by Item Revisions items that include a vorpal effect, after all, right?

Yes, in both cases the weapon's proc is externalized as .spl, it could have been done without a spl, but polyvorp patches minhp1 type items (found on bosses who have defeated dialogue) to prevent bugs if they're below 50% hp.

Coincidentally, both in IR and my mod, silver sword has a 10% chance, axe of the unyielding 5%, so it could be as simple as overwriting dvorpal.spl (although I dislike interfering with other people's mod files unless necessary) and then only the description needs updating (no save, but only possible for targets already under half their normal hp).

[Quester]

Is it possible to fix this in an ongoing game with IRR installed before polyvorp?

[polytope]

19 hours ago, Quester said:

Is it possible to fix this in an ongoing game with IRR installed before polyvorp?

Is polyvorp near the end of your install order? The ravager halberd is the only weapon substantially incompatible, in that it will now have a 15% chance of vorpal if target below 50% hp and also the IR 15% chance of a fast acting poison, overlapping. The silver sword and axe only have description errors.

You could uninstall polyvorp, and comment out (as above, editing with notepad /* ... */) the sections of polyvorp.tp2 referencing the halberd, beginning at lines 57 and 504 of the file, disregard the parts about EFF immunity beginning at line 125, that's harmless, then reinstall.

If polyvorp was installed before mods that shouldn't be touched midgame, like Item Randomiser and SCS, the halberd will be awkward to change and perhaps too powerful, you could either use it as your disgression, not forge the upgraded version, or if you prefer I could simply:

1. PM you the item file as it should be in Item Revisions and you can place it in your game's override folder, restoring it to the usal IR behaviour (the in-game description would still be wrong).
2. PM you the item file as it should be modified by polyvorp (the description will be correct).

This latter method has potential problems because it's a hard overwrite of item files, if for instances some other mod globally modifies halberd characteristics. The ravager halberd will only be used PCs, so enchantment labeling is irrelevant I guess (and irrelevant anyway on EE which can hot detect whether a target is hittable by script).

Edited November 10, 2022 by polytope

[Connelly]

I was checking if this mod could work along with Forgotten Armaments, but seems they clash. FA makes it so targets who save against the the vanilla saving throw still receive some damage (both for player and balor/deva weapons it seems), as if to simulate the weapon still hitting you physically. Override item texts aside, in NI looks to me like each mod just steps on each other's changes. Either you take FA's extra damage, or Polyvorp's percentage mechanic.

May I ask if it'd be much trouble to retain FA's damage on successful save, either for a future update or a manual tweak? Considering Polyvorp would be after SCS, I assume that one would have to look for FA being already installed and then change the saves for the percentage, but from what absolutely nothing little I know it seems like you'd have to create new effect records? This isn't terribly important if not possible, so I'm content with Polyvorp being on top.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Connelly

[polytope]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:15 AM, Connelly said:

Override item texts aside, in NI looks to me like each mod just steps on each other's changes. Either you take FA's extra damage, or Polyvorp's percentage mechanic.

May I ask if it'd be much trouble to retain FA's damage on successful save, either for a future update or a manual tweak? Considering Polyvorp would be after SCS, I assume that one would have to look for FA being already installed and then change the saves for the percentage, but from what absolutely nothing little I know it seems like you'd have to create new effect records? This isn't terribly important if not possible, so I'm content with Polyvorp being on top.

It should probably be mentioned here that if you use the optional component of my other mod Revised Dispel Magic, and want PnP Carsomyr, that should come after Forgotten Armament. However, RDM ideally comes before SCS (not a huge incompatibility in current version if it doesn't, but fails to catch the cloned fast-casting Remove Magic used by fiends, which would then function as in the unmodded game).

Now, on the actual subject, there are multiple mods like Item Revisions, Daulmakan's Item Pack, Forgotten Armament - too many others to list really - which tweak in game items, however, clearly one of the most frequent mechanics targeted for systematic overhaul by modders is that of vorpal weapons either for nerfing to some degree or for added effects (like extra damage) on enemies that are normally immune to instadeath.

I'd therefore propose to other modders that item changes to vorpal weapons specifically be packaged as a separate component to more global item rebalancing, which minimizes the extent of cross-mod conflict, this way the player can decide on install which version they want. Tagging @Bartimaeus and @morpheus562 , since after all this pertains to more than just my own modifications of vorpals.

[Bartimaeus]

57 minutes ago, polytope said:

I'd therefore propose to other modders that item changes to vorpal weapons specifically be packaged as a separate component to more global item rebalancing, which minimizes the extent of cross-mod conflict, this way the player can decide on install which version they want. Tagging @Bartimaeus and @morpheus562 , since after all this pertains to more than just my own modifications of vorpals.

I'm afraid I don't seem to understand. @Connelly wants FA's additional damage for a failed/immune vorpal blow (which IRR also implements for some but not all vorpal weapons) combined with polyvorp's general revisions of the vorpal mechanic...so the solution is "FA and IR/R should not install their own changes to vorpal weapons at all"? How does that follow or in any way solve Connelly's issue?

Anyways, as IR adds additional vorpal effects to weapons (Heartseeker and Impaler) that polyvorp makes no attempt to account for, I'm not really sure it's the best idea to try to combine these mods in the first place - it will just result in either items not having the effects that they're supposed to (if they're not installed) or inconsistency in how they're applied (if they are). Either situations would be very undesired.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[polytope]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I'm afraid I don't seem to understand. @Connelly wants FA's additional damage for a failed/immune vorpal blow (which IRR also implements for some but not all vorpal weapons) combined with polyvorp's general revisions of the vorpal mechanic...so the solution is "FA and IR/R should not install their own changes to vorpal weapons at all"? How does that follow or in any way solve Connelly's issue?

Not just for this specific interaction, but because multiple mods redo the vorpal thing as part of a purview to tweak a much wider variety of items. Incompatibilities appear if two mods are making changes to the same file, but at least if the modifications of a certain class of item that multiple authors have different solutions for (such as dispel-on-hit weapons or vorpal weapons) are moved from global changes to a subcomponent then the mods would be more configurable and interact better with each other.

It's the main reason I put my changes to Carsomyr & arrows of dispelling as part of my revisions to Dispel Magic, and released a separate modification of vorpal weapons rather than bundling them all under a single item mod, because those are two different aspects of the game.

As for Connelly's original complaint, since this mod reduces the % chance of a vorpal hit, the excess damage would either apply on a larger fraction of attacks, those which weren't successful vorpal procs, which doesn't make sense, or there would be less average damage if I enforce the percentiles, I don't see a good solution there. Also, I don't see the point of excess damage from a vorpal weapon on an immune target/successful save (there's the base damage anyway on a successful hit and if the creature is supposed to be unaffected by vorpal weapons, well, why would it take extra damage?).

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Anyways, as IR adds additional vorpal effects to weapons (Heartseeker and Impaler) that polyvorp makes no attempt to account for

Those are a spear and bow though, so conceptually need not have exactly the same type of effect as chopping weapons. I also didn't modify, say, Deathblow HLA or the assassin kit's Death Attack special from Rogue Rebalancing, because while those are (potentially) instant death physical attacks they aren't "vorpalling" and there's no need to standardize.

[morpheus562]

I have no qualms with splitting the vorpal and dispel on hit updates into separate, standalone components within Forgotten Armament. No timeline on it, but it should be easy enough.

[subtledoctor]

What ever happened to the good old “last mod wins” rule? Just overwrite other mods. That gives players a clear method for combining mods in ways they prefer. (It won’t allow for combining aspects of different mods, as Connelly desires, but IMHO that desire is unrealistic anyway.)

[Connelly]

To be clear, it wasn't my intention to pretend to have any modder conform to the mods of others, as I acknowledged the incompatibility first thing, and I got no issue with just having one mod wining. I was more curious on the possibility of two seemingly disparate types of change (one to effects, the other to method of application) coexisting, rather than any actual desire or worse, demand. I apologize if my comment came across like that.

[morpheus562]

37 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

What ever happened to the good old “last mod wins” rule? Just overwrite other mods. That gives players a clear method for combining mods in ways they prefer. (It won’t allow for combining aspects of different mods, as Connelly desires, but IMHO that desire is unrealistic anyway.)

Nothing wrong with the last mod wins rule, but I also understand each player has their own unique taste to mix and match. I have no issue with pulling out changes to vorpal and on-hit dispel magic to separate components because a player may like my item changes but not those changes. Alternatively, they may like what I do with vorpal but don't want everything that comes with my item changes. I'm not viewing this as a way for intra-mod compatability (even though it does this), but more of giving each player more of an a la carte options to choose from instead of an all or nothing.