Would anyone like to see healing spells and potions overhauled?

[polytope]

As things stand potions are almost always the better choice; those can be used immediately, no casting time or possibility of interruption and it takes up only a warrior's action for the round, rather than a spellcaster's (pre HLA that's preferable). And there's a real abundance of healing potions as proven by the fact that people solo fighters through the trilogy in Ironman/no-reload play.

There are currently mods that increase the amount healed per spell level, although I had ideas along a different track; on another board there was a discussion about the reality of damage in games, the argument being that hp loss always means real physical damage but:

• If you get hit for 1 hp damage and you only had 2, it represents a severe injury like a pneumothorax, severed artery or broken skull.
• If you get hit for 1 hp and had 14, it represents a substantial injury, a broken rib or deep bleeding cut.
• If you get hit for 1 hp when you had 100, it was merely a bruise or graze

Weapons that use a larger damage die or dice (or monsters with such for their attacks) represent their increased likelihood of causing a really devastating wound. But what about a spell named Cure Light Wounds? Shouldn't the healing be more dependent on the level of the target than the caster, since high level characters are better able to mitigate the damage done to them?

I've thought up the following table, regarding percent of hp restored per level of the target:

Which would also apply to the reversed i.e. harmful versions of these spells, note that this means that powerful creatures will still have 30% of their hp left after landing a Harm spell on them, that Cause Wounds spells other than Harm are actually useful, and that beholders will be much more dangerous unless their Cause Serious Wounds eyebeam is nerfed to allow a save (it doesn't require an attack roll, so probably could be given a save with a penalty dependent on the type of beholder).

Potions on the other hand should be nerfed a bit, to compensate for healing magic being more powerful, I'd use the PnP values:

• Potion of Healing 2d4+2 hp (not much of a nerf actually, since it only healed 9)
• Potion of Extra Healing 3d8+3
• Potion of Superior Healing 8d6+2 (the least nerfed, but also the least common)

Of course, randomness with dice is actually harder on players (is this EH potion going to heal me 22hp, or only 9?).

Thoughts on this?

Edit: I updated the healing table to be a bit less "jumpy". Dependent on wisdom and assuming standard cleric spell progression, once a cleric reaches level 11 they should be able to heal their entire party and themself fully once per day... over about 20 rounds (actually, a Wondrous Recall to get back two CCW spells may be a better choice than a heal, something I doubt players ever did in vanilla). Of course, if you don't have the nerf to Greater Restoration installed, a 14+ level cleric can heal the entire party in one round.

Edited February 11, 2022 by polytope

[ahungry]

Sounds interesting, but I think the reason potions>heals is simply the touch range restriction on heals.  If I could cast cure with my healer from the back and the heal would shoot to my target as a bolt or something, I think it'd put heals on even ground with potions.

[Jarno Mikkola]

There's a reason why the 5th edition healing spells have 2 ranges, one for touch(cure wounds), and another for ~rounds movement range(healing word). The latter is lesser version of the former. But they are both balanced in battle.

You shouldn't put the spells healing to a percentage but to a set amount, and not to a dice value either, cause that's usually very bad. The reason being that the player can save and load a in bad dice results. And the warriors will have upper limit either way.

[polytope]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:52 PM, ahungry said:

Sounds interesting, but I think the reason potions>heals is simply the touch range restriction on heals.  If I could cast cure with my healer from the back and the heal would shoot to my target as a bolt or something, I think it'd put heals on even ground with potions.

That's already the case with Greater Restoration if you don't have the SCS nerf installed, and Mass Cure has the default 15 ft radius.

It would be an advantage though for the minor cures at low party levels when you don't yet have boots of speed/haste and take a risk by ordering your potentially fragile cleric to the front.

On 2/10/2022 at 10:29 PM, Jarno Mikkola said:

You shouldn't put the spells healing to a percentage but to a set amount, and not to a dice value either, cause that's usually very bad. The reason being that the player can save and load a in bad dice results.

Not in the middle of combat, which is when healing potions are used... and Mass Cure already used a die, 1d8 + level hp which was practically better than Cure Critical Wounds when you get 5th level spells i.e. heals the cleric and at least one other character by 10-17hp each, with a shorter casting time too.

Edited February 12, 2022 by polytope

[subtledoctor]

I’m not a fan of too much variability when it comes to healing. 6-27 for potions of extra healing is a huge range. I don’t mind in combat so much - if I need good healing I’ll use the more robust versions, and anyway if I’m in dire need of healing mid-combat, then something has already gone terribly wrong and a bit of healing likely won’t fix it. 

The bigger issue is, when I’m just walking around or eating dinner in an inn, and want to heal up. A few low rolls can be quite frustrating in those contexts. More, what about temples? I pay several hundred GP for a good heal and get a bad roll? 

Maybe just reduce the values, so you have to gulp more potions to keep yourself healthy. Potion of Healing = d4+5; Extra Healing = 2d4+10; Superior Healing = 4d4+15. Something like that. 

(That may just end up being a nerf to enemies though. In my game I’m finding I barely ever bother with potions; but enemies use them and to see a strong enemy I’ve been fighting for a while go from badly hurt to barely hurt makes things noticeably more challenging.)

I find potions to be something I often just do without. (Though I tend to play caster-heavy parties.) It would be interesting to overhaul them completely, instead of just being undispellable buffs, give them more pseudo-spell effects. Like, there should be a potion that recreates the Grease spell, and one that recreates Stinking Cloud. There are already two that explode like Fireballs; the lesser one should probably be changed to mimic Produce Fire. Another one could mimic a weak Vitriolic Sphere. The Wand of Cloudkill with its 10+ charges should be replaced with a single-use Potion of Cloudkill. 

That’s just damaging effects. How about handheld pyrotechnics that mimic Glitterdust or even False Dawn? How about, instead of simple stat buffs (all those boring interchangeable strength potions!), some potions that actually change you into some monstrous form? Maybe a potion you could chuck at a mage, and if it hits (attack roll? save vs. breath?) it would cover them in magic-absorbing mites that cause spell failure. Or even wild surges. 

Erm, uh, hang on, brb [runs to bat-cave]

Edited February 10, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Gwaihir]

I almost never use healing spells in combat, and seldom ooc, where I can simply equip some kind of regeneration item while exploring/questing/area transitions; potions are way more practical: instantaneous, reliable, and usable by anyone.

In my opinion one way to balance potions would be to change the healing effects to heal half of their value immediately, and half as a regeneration effect, so one wouldn't be able to really abuse them to tank a strong enemy.  Potions are created using magic, sure, but they still need to be ingested. On the other hand, spells should always heal a fixed amount, scaling with the caster level, and capped according to the spell tier.

Also temples should really just heal hp to full.

[subtledoctor]

39 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

Also temples should really just heal hp to full.

Now that I think about it, that's totally right.

[ahungry]

In my latest large install, I've had some fun with a giant variety of potions, as some mods tuned vanilla potions to be dice based, while other mod added potions were not.  Then, some NPC mods like Aura add % based heal potions as well, so this has given me the options of:

- Dice based potion (good for chuggables that I use to keep topped off in combat in early game/BG1 of EET)

- Flat value potions (20hp heal, 31 hp heal etc.) - I give these based on recipient's total HP pool, so it can act as a full heal

- % based heal potion (I think it was 33%) - I give this to the huge HP guys as it ends up acting like a ~50 point heal towards end of BG1 and can sort of take the place of chugging the Durlag tower grail, but usable all game long

I find the most use I get out of heal spells tends to be as they're auto-cast by the SCS player AI script - finish a fight, and team will auto-heal without using up $$$ costing resources (potions).

 

In combat, even with item_rev and SoB armor DR stacked (so, full plate giving close to 63% phys damage reduction) and the tweaks "max hp on npc" mod, it's still rare that I ever hit a "sweet spot" in combat of damage taken, where using potions AND heals would be preferable, as the damage is always either coming in too slow, or too fast.

I feel like if all npcs (player and AI) had LoB type scaling applied to just their HP numbers, so my tanks were close to ~400 hp - the pacing of the fight would be such that a melee would need to chug potions AND get spam-healed by a dedicated healer or two to keep alive during a difficult encounter, but as-is it just doesn't happen - if someone has such high dps on my guy, the option is to run away and get out of damage entirely - not soak the damage.

Edited February 10, 2022 by ahungry

[Awachi]

Lots of consumables in p&p are just existing spells imbued into a liquid via ritual. Would it be weird to first standardize the spells, then the potions could simply be potionized versions? I'm leaning towards static amounts and about 10 hp per spell level. 

[Endarire]

I generally dislike wide ranges of damage healed.  Healing d8+1 may mean a measly 2.

[polytope]

14 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

In my opinion one way to balance potions would be to change the healing effects to heal half of their value immediately, and half as a regeneration effect, so one wouldn't be able to really abuse them to tank a strong enemy.  Potions are created using magic, sure, but they still need to be ingested.

I hear you, but this could actually be used to the player's advantage, i.e. let's says a potion of extra healing restores 13hp immediately, and gives 2hp/round regeneration for 7 rounds thereafter; a PC can drink two safely out of sight of where he knows a dangerous monster lurks, then rush them and as combat starts drink a third, thus enjoying 6hp/round regeneration for the next 5 rounds of the fight. A tactic the AI won't be able to replicate. There's a reason potions of regeneration are rarer than healing potions in game.

18 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I’m not a fan of too much variability when it comes to healing. 6-27 for potions of extra healing is a huge range. I don’t mind in combat so much - if I need good healing I’ll use the more robust versions, and anyway if I’m in dire need of healing mid-combat, then something has already gone terribly wrong and a bit of healing likely won’t fix it. 

The bigger issue is, when I’m just walking around or eating dinner in an inn, and want to heal up. A few low rolls can be quite frustrating in those contexts. More, what about temples? I pay several hundred GP for a good heal and get a bad roll? 

Maybe just reduce the values, so you have to gulp more potions to keep yourself healthy. Potion of Healing = d4+5; Extra Healing = 2d4+10; Superior Healing = 4d4+15. Something like that. 

(That may just end up being a nerf to enemies though. In my game I’m finding I barely ever bother with potions; but enemies use them and to see a strong enemy I’ve been fighting for a while go from badly hurt to barely hurt makes things noticeably more challenging.)

I find potions to be something I often just do without. (Though I tend to play caster-heavy parties.) It would be interesting to overhaul them completely, instead of just being undispellable buffs, give them more pseudo-spell effects. Like, there should be a potion that recreates the Grease spell, and one that recreates Stinking Cloud. There are already two that explode like Fireballs; the lesser one should probably be changed to mimic Produce Fire. Another one could mimic a weak Vitriolic Sphere. The Wand of Cloudkill with its 10+ charges should be replaced with a single-use Potion of Cloudkill. 

That’s just damaging effects. How about handheld pyrotechnics that mimic Glitterdust or even False Dawn? How about, instead of simple stat buffs (all those boring interchangeable strength potions!), some potions that actually change you into some monstrous form? Maybe a potion you could chuck at a mage, and if it hits (attack roll? save vs. breath?) it would cover them in magic-absorbing mites that cause spell failure. Or even wild surges.

I wasn't suggesting random rolls for healing spells, but random rolls for potions make a lot more sense to me, besides being BtB. After all, do you know the vintage, dosage, expiry date of any given potion?

I do not favor changing potions to essentially be spell scrolls anyone can use, firstly and thematically they rarely exactly mimic a wizard or cleric spell, with the exception of a potion of extra healing duplicating CCW. Even the oil of speed is quite different to Haste (duration and lack of fatigue), there's no spell equivalent to potions like stoneform, heroism, giant strength and invulnerability.

In gameplay terms potions that are the equivalent of offensive spells mean a boost for the player's party, you're usually limited to the number of spells you can cast per round (pre HLA) by the number of spellcasters in your party; even in vanilla, equipping everyone who can't cast fireball with potions of explosions and simultaneously showering a group of say beholders with them is a powerful tactic. Wands don't quite have this problem because of the limitations on classes who can use them.

Generally, I feel magical spells should be usable by, well, magic-users... in the absence of a rare and difficult to acquire item such as the sunblade or helm of brilliance.

[Gwaihir]

9 hours ago, polytope said:

a PC can drink two safely out of sight of where he knows a dangerous monster lurks, then rush them and as combat starts drink a third, thus enjoying 6hp/round regeneration for the next 5 rounds of the fight

Yeah.. although this way at least he would be wasting a bit of resources (if chugging 3 potions at full health), therefore money.

What I omitted to say is, there could be a component 'allow only one regeneration effect active at a time for each character' and also 'make so that when two regen effects are applied, only the best one remains active', a bit like Tweaks anthology's PnP AC items.

It sounds all nice and easy, when said like that

[Jarno Mikkola]

21 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

What I omitted to say is, there could be a component 'allow only one regeneration effect active at a time for each character' and also 'make so that when two regen effects are applied, only the best one remains active', a bit like Tweaks anthology's PnP AC items.

So you want to go back to games before the EE's came out. Go a head and go back.

[subtledoctor]

Come on, it is entirely reasonable to decide that chugging multiples of the same potion should only apply the effect once. Just chuck a 321 effect at the beginning. Done. It's not like drinking two Potions of Storm Giant Strength raises your STR past 24...

Edited February 11, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Gwaihir]

29 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

So you want to go back to games before the EE's came out. Go a head and go back.

Just throwing ideas in the open. Truth be told, I'm not even sure I'd use such a change