Schools and Spheres

[Shadowblade]

I just got BG EE 1 and 2 in a sale because the original disks just absolutely will not install under Windows 10.

Are there any mods or fix packs to make the game respect Priest Spheres and Specialist Wizard opposition schools?

I've got as far as Beregost and already I am intensely irritated that my Gnome Illusionist/Assassin can cast Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Illusionists are forbidden Invocation/Evocation and Abjurations spells, as well as Necromancy.

And Jaheira can wear steel plate mail, as well as cast Clerical spells! I recall that the best armour for her was ankheg plate mail, as it is made from the chitin shell of a giant insectoid and Druids are forbidden metallic armour. Sure, she's a Fighter/Druid, but she still must abide by the laws of her religion. I can use role-playing self-discipline, but I'd prefer the game to be fixed to be actual 2nd edit AD&D, not something based on it.

This is the only thing I disliked about the original games. I'm a bit of a rules purist, although I preferred First Edition. My favourite classes were Barbarian, Druid and Illusionist.

There was  superb mod for BG1, which also added Illusionist spells like Shadow Magick, but I don't know if it works for EE and I can't remember the author anyway.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[polytope]

2 hours ago, Shadowblade said:

I just got BG EE 1 and 2 in a sale because the original disks just absolutely will not install under Windows 10.

Odd, it worked on my laptop, so long as the installation pathway isn't program files. Have you tried disabling Windows Defender and using a different antivirus?

(Not that anyone will find the original CD's again, outside an archeological dig, but there are ISOs...)

2 hours ago, Shadowblade said:

Are there any mods or fix packs to make the game respect Priest Spheres and Specialist Wizard opposition schools?

I've got as far as Beregost and already I am intensely irritated that my Gnome Illusionist/Assassin can cast Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Illusionists are forbidden Invocation/Evocation and Abjurations spells, as well as Necromancy.

And Jaheira can wear steel plate mail, as well as cast Clerical spells! I recall that the best armour for her was ankheg plate mail, as it is made from the chitin shell of a giant insectoid and Druids are forbidden metallic armour. Sure, she's a Fighter/Druid, but she still must abide by the laws of her religion.

Divine Remix purports to fix the sphere system (disclaimer, I haven't tried it and I can explain why in a minute) Item Revisions enforces non metal armor for even dual and multiclass druids, but is more based on 3rd edition, while you've said your preference is 1st and 2nd.

About Illusionists... their opposition schools in 2ed are a bit weird, for some reason it was thought necessary to give them three since they're no longer a separate class, but then again any mage (or sorcerer) could access all illusionist spells and the Diviner got away with the loss of but one school (Conjuration). The only specialist who had their PnP restrictions enforced in even the original BG1 was the Invoker, who lost both Conjuration and Enchantment (since Invokers are very powerful, an extra -2 on save vs Web is no small thing, and even the normally weak Chromatic Orbs become much more dangerous with the specialist saving throw penalty), still, for reasons of parsimony Invokers now only lose Enchantments, with all kits capped at one restricted school (as the Diviner already was). Part of the reason is probably the existence of sorcerers, I doubt any experienced player would choose a specialist mage over a sorc if they have to give up two schools of magic.

Similarly, the priestly spell list is pretty curtailed in order to actually implement in game - I mean, there's no equivalent of Augury or Commune or Speak with Animals - which is why spheres weren't restricted. Obviously paladins and priests of Lathander shouldn't get Animate Dead, and Sunray is supposed to be a druidic rather than clerical spell but those are the only two issues which really annoy me. Even the fact that druids get Chaotic Commands and Defensive Harmony, or that those who are dual or multiclass can wear metal armor I can tolerate considering how hard druids got hit with the nerf bat.

Edited August 29, 2022 by polytope

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, polytope said:

Divine Remix purports to fix the sphere system (disclaimer, I haven't tried it and I can explain why in a minute)

You didn't actually explain. But when I tried it, I desided to uninstall it and never return to the mod because the sphere system for a priest, when they contain only 1 or 2 spells and you get 3 spheres is VYKK AGUR(to decode, just look one letter to the right), without healing spells.

[polytope]

I thought I did explain: "the priestly spell list is pretty curtailed in order to actually implement in game... which is why spheres weren't restricted"

A loss of sphere access in BG2 has real problems for the viability of the associated kit, because there is a relative paucity of spells, in particular lacking access to a sphere like Protection (Armor of Faith, Dispel Magic, Remove Paralysis, Protection from Fire if you don't also have Elemental access, Protection from Lightning if you don't have Weather, Shield of the Archons) and having no substitutes just makes that subtype of priest obviously inferior. Inability to use the Numbers sphere on the other hand only removes Physical Mirror (and btb should remove Implosion) which isn't very important in the vanilla game.

It's a similar problem to that posed by the Abjurer and Transmuter wizard kits, inability to learn certain indispensable spells.

[subtledoctor]

IWDification adds spells from IWD, including Shadow Monsters

Faiths & Powers adds a sphere system - in fact it has several sphere systems to choose from including a rather strict PnP/Divine Remix-inspired one, and if you are willing to edit a document before installing you can make sure it conforms to your specifications. 

Tome & Blood has an option to use the more restrictive IWD opposition schools instead of the BG2 set… I don’t think it’s as restrictive as you want, however. This one is not as easy to adjust, but if there is a system that you think deserves adding, I could do that. E.g. currently the options are “BG2 opposition schools,” “IWD opposition schools,” and “no opposition schools.” If you think there should additionally be a “1E opposition schools” option, I could add it. You’ll just need to specify the details since I may not have whatever sourcebook you model it on. 

EDIT - Ah, I’ve found a site/post that describes the original 2E opposition schools. Looks like the IWD opposition schools are close, but do not perfectly model it; I guess I’ll add a true-to-PnP option. Meanwhile, I just noticed this:

Quote

For example, an invoker cannot learn enchantment/charm or conjuration/summoning spells and cannot use magical items that duplicate spells from these schools.

I did not recall that at all. Might be worth making a mod that applies specialist usability exclusions to wands and similar items… 

Edited August 29, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Shadowblade]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

VYKK AGUR(to decode, just look one letter to the right), without healing spells.

Look one letter to the right? How do you mean?  WZLL BHVS? Still makes no sense!  

 

3 hours ago, polytope said:

Odd, it worked on my laptop, so long as the installation pathway isn't program files. Have you tried disabling Windows Defender and using a different antivirus?

I don't use Windows Defender, I use BitDefender Total Security. Compatibility mode did not help. When I run Autorun.exe as administrator, the splash panel pops up and the music plays but when I click INSTALL, nothing. Not even an error message. I actually have Windows 10 Education, so I have some control over telemetry and automatic updates etc. But the original CDs give no options for the installation path. This PC I got in early 2012 with Win 7 Home Professional 64 bit to play Skyrim. I never played BG on it as far as I can remember. I only got Win 10 in March 2022 because my MMO would no longer let me log in without Win 8 or higher. I added two new SSDs and upgraded RAM from 8 to 32 GB at the same time.

I always did a full install, so only took the disks out of the boxes when I got a new PC and never needed to change CDs while playing. The disks are fine and I copied all the files to C:\ to confirm, but I don't know how to mount then on a virtual CD drive like with Daggerfall and DosBox. Someone told me that it's the file system in Windows 10 and that in Windows 7 you could install it in Safe Mode, but my Win 10 won't go into safe mode. Anyway, I'll pay £10.67, but not £37, and I have the Dragonspear one was well, so I am all set! 

 

3 hours ago, polytope said:

Divine Remix purports to fix the sphere system... Item Revisions enforces non metal armor for even dual and multiclass druids, but is more based on 3rd edition

But why? BG is a 2nd edit game. I did like 3.5E a lot, but this is a 2nd edit game. I think the only 3.5E game was "The Temple of Elemental Evil", but that needed the Circle of Eight patch to fix the ridiculous bugs and party members looting stuff you couldn't get back, or stopped you looting at all.

It might have been the older Gibberling's Three fix packs and Tutu or something from TeamBG that fixed Jaheira's armour and so on. I remember getting the Ankheg stuff just for her.

When I buy a so-called AD&D PC game, I want to play AD&D on the PC. Not some horrible confection and mish-mash. There are plenty of useful Druid spells not implemented, so I was hoping there were some mods for it.

Animal Friendship
Sunscorch
Faerie Fire
Heat Metal
Produce Flame
Pyrotechnics
Spike Growth
Produce Fire
Wall of Fire

But I also want the Fix packs. I had hoped EE would have already done this. Like not allowing Paladins to cast Druid spells, or Cleric/Rangers getting Druid spells at level 1 and so on. Jaheira is considered the most powerful NPC in the game at end-game levels due to her spell mish-mash and no Druidic armour restrictions.

 

3 hours ago, polytope said:

About Illusionists... their opposition schools in 2ed are a bit weird

No' I think they are not. They can cast Illusion/Phantasm, Enchantment/Charm, Alteration and also Divination and Conjuration/Summoning. 2nd edit was very imperfect, but kind of mimicked the First Edition Illusionist. Complete Wizards and Spells and Magick added some more formerly unique Illusionist spells back to the game, I forget about the Tome of Magick. I include Chromatic Orb, Colour Spray and so on because they were originally Illusionist spells in First Edition. Weaving the many-coloured threads of Illusion from colour, shadow and light. That's why they need DEX 16 (and INT 15 in First Edition).

I used the Gibberlings Three fix pack back in the day, BG Tutu and so on. I wish I could remember the BG1 mod I used. It changed every spell, NPC and monster spell lists and AI scripts in the game to respect the Schools and also the Spheres from Spells and Magick, which also gave Sunray and so on back to the Druid. As it should be.

You don't need Protection from Evil when you have a Paladin or Cleric in the party and have access to spells like Blur, Mirror Image, Blindness, Invisibility, Wraithform, Armor, Stoneskin and so on.

The mod added Illusionist spells that were excluded for no reason from BG1. Things like:

Hypnotic Pattern
Improved Phantasmal Force
Spectral Force
Phantasmal Killer
Rainbow Pattern
Shadow Monsters
Advanced Illusion
Demi-Shadow Monsters
Shadow Door
Shadow Magic
Demi-Shadow Magic
 

Sadly, he said he will never do the same for BG2. Maybe too much work?

So this Divine Remix is the only one available? That's a shame.

 

Anyway, many thanks for you're input, I enjoy chatting about this stuff! 

 

[Shadowblade]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

IWDification adds spells from IWD, including Shadow Monsters

Faiths & Powers adds a sphere system - in fact it has several sphere systems to choose from including a rather strict PnP/Divine Remix-inspired one, and if you are willing to edit a document before installing you can make sure it conforms to your specifications.

Excellent! I'll check that out! And the others.

The original games could have easily respected Priest Spheres and Wizard Schools just by having a few more spells. That's why the BG1 mod whose name escapes me added Illusionist spells.

First Edition had no Opposition Schools. The Illusionist was a sub-class of Magic User and had their own spell list, with max level at 7 and when they could cast level 7 Illusions, they could also cast 1st level Magic User spalls.

But it just rankles that when I created my Gnome Illusionist/Assassin, Magic Missile was pre-selected for him. And when I did a test character in BG2, as that went on sale first, he also had Fireball and Lightning Bolt pre-selected. She has INT 19 and DEX 18, so learning new spells should not be a problem. But I don't want Abjration and Evocations, except Chromatic Orb, which is also an Alteration spell.

Then I saw that in BG1 Jaheira could wear Plate Mail and was confused, as I know I always gave her the Ankheg Plate Mail, as it is not metal. But we can barely survive that map at level 1, so we got Ajantis and went south.

Then I figured that I must be remembering all the bug fixes and so on I used to use with the original CD version, so I went to Google and found this place. I was still a member!

I remember on TeamBG that people would be talking about what does this do in this 2DA file, and a few pages later "Got it!". It was the bonus to hit, damage, attack speed and number of attacks per round. So that could be fixed as well for single class Fighters with Weapon Mastery, High Mastery and Grand Mastery. Exciting times.

So if I try these mods, what happens if I uninstall them? Is that easy to do?

 

Many Thanks! 

 

 

 

 

[subtledoctor]

I've added PnP-accurate Opposition Schools as an option to Tome & Blood.

42 minutes ago, Shadowblade said:

There are plenty of useful Druid spells not implemented, so I was hoping there were some mods for it.

Animal Friendship
Sunscorch
Faerie Fire
Heat Metal
Produce Flame
Pyrotechnics
Spike Growth
Produce Fire
Wall of Fire

Sunscorch, Faerie Fire, and Spike Growsth are added by Spell Revisions. Sunscorch, Spike Growth, and Produce Fire and added by IWDification.

The only mod I can think that adds your listed spells, it must have been SpellPackB6. Unfortunately, it is long-since lost from the internet and not compatible with the EEs. (Also not compatible with lots of other mods.) But I don't recall SpellPack ever applying priest spheres or changing specialist opposition schools...

(Wall of Fire could not really be done properly IIRC, but now that I think about it, it is probably possible now in the EE 2.5/2.6 engine. Maybe we should add it in Faiths & Powers.)

42 minutes ago, Shadowblade said:

The mod added Illusionist spells that were excluded for no reason from BG1. Things like:

Hypnotic Pattern
Improved Phantasmal Force
Spectral Force
Phantasmal Killer
Rainbow Pattern
Shadow Monsters
Advanced Illusion
Demi-Shadow Monsters
Shadow Door
Shadow Magic
Demi-Shadow Magic

Shadow Monsters, Demi-Shadow Monsters, and Shades are added by IWDification. My "Random Tweaks" mod changes them to be a bit more phantasmal in nature. Not PnP-accurate, just differentiated from being conjured summons by another name.

Most of the other ones seem like they would be hard to implement in this engine. I've always thought that Illusionists were treated poorly by BG2 - basically all of their spells seem to 1) turn you invisible, or 2) make an illusionary clone or image of the caster. That's super boring. IWDification plus Tome & Blood's "Rebalanced Spell Schools" component give more stuff to illusionists - the Shadow Monster spells, Invisible Stalker, Color Spray, Confusion (conceived as confusing phantasms instead of an enchantment),  and the Bigby's Hand spells (conceived as big illusionary hands given substance). It's not as much as I think they deserve, and it's of course not PnP-accurate, but it's something...

[subtledoctor]

43 minutes ago, Shadowblade said:

So if I try these mods, what happens if I uninstall them? Is that easy to do?

Applying a sphere system must be done before starting a new game - the spheres are applied at character generation. Basically you should install them, see if they are to your liking, then uninstall them if not. And start a game after you've made the decision.

Tome & Blood's wizard opposition school changes can be installed and uninstalled as you want, but it will not remove any spells already in a wizard's spellbook.

[Trouveur80]

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

.Wall of Fire could not really be done properly IIRC, but now that I think about it, it is probably possible now in the EE 2.5/2.6 engine.

The Artisan made a Wall of Fire spell for his IWD pyromancer NPC, Karihi : https://artisans-corner.com/karihi/

[subtledoctor]

Are we really calling Artemius_1/AionZ “The Artisan” now? 

Edited August 29, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

10 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I did not recall that at all. Might be worth making a mod that applies specialist usability exclusions to wands and similar items… 

It's mostly scrolls.

 

8 hours ago, Shadowblade said:

Look one letter to the right? How do you mean?  WZLL BHVS? Still makes no sense!  

It's called qwerty -keyboard, which would be the assumed keyboard character set ...
But how the hell did you get W from a V ? EDIT: never mind, you got a Dvorak -key layout.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Jarno Mikkola

[Shadowblade]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

It's called qwerty -keyboard, which would be the assumed keyboard character set ...
But how the hell did you get W from a V ? EDIT: never mind, you got a Dvorak -key layout.

No, it's a UK keyboard. When you said "look to the right", I thought you meant a frameshift code where the letter shown represents the next one in the alphabet, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. That's how I got a W from a V.

So, VYKK AGUR, and I look to the key to the right... BULL S...

Oh, I see! 

 

LOL!

[Shadowblade]

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I've added PnP-accurate Opposition Schools as an option to Tome & Blood.

Sunscorch, Faerie Fire, and Spike Growsth are added by Spell Revisions. Sunscorch, Spike Growth, and Produce Fire and added by IWDification.

The only mod I can think that adds your listed spells, it must have been SpellPackB6.

No, it wasn't called that, but it was a BG1 revision to actual 2nd edit rules. Long gone now. But I might have it on some back up drives from years ago, but it would take a while to look. It annoyed me that when you changed the difficulty slider, it said for Core Rules "the true AD&D 2nd edit rules", when it absolutely was not. It doesn't say that now in EE.

We got to Nashkel and found the suit of Ankheg armour, so Jaheira got it. Then I sent Khalid naked into the next map and he got eaten by a wolf so I can have 5 in the party and pick up NPCs for side quests and so on..

Oh, maybe this needs a new thread, but can we do anything about the party member's speech? I am SO sick of "Yeah-ESS, oh OMMM-ni-present ought-orri-tee fee-gee-ORR?" I want to delete that sound file.

I double click on her, so now she says "Yeah-ESS...  you've a task?" If she didn't have useful spells, I'd kick her out. I might change her for Anomen later. I like Ajantis because he can Detect Evil and then we can kill them with no rep loss. That was the only way we survived Silkie after a reload! There also seem to be new NPCs, like a wild mage in Beregost and a Monk in Nashkel. And I'm sure Minsc used to be under a tree, but now he's out in the open.

But thanks for your suggestions, I'd certainly like to check them out.

Are there fix packs for bugs and so on?

Cheers! 

 

[polytope]

20 hours ago, Shadowblade said:

I used the Gibberlings Three fix pack back in the day, BG Tutu and so on. I wish I could remember the BG1 mod I used. It changed every spell, NPC and monster spell lists and AI scripts in the game to respect the Schools and also the Spheres from Spells and Magick... The mod added Illusionist spells that were excluded for no reason from BG1.

Might it have been Fields of the Dead by Echon?

20 hours ago, Shadowblade said:

Jaheira is considered the most powerful NPC in the game at end-game levels due to her spell mish-mash and no Druidic armour restrictions.

In my experience neither at the BG1-ToTSC XP cap, nor the SoA cap, nor even the ToB XP cap. 161k xp split between two classes still doesn't get you 5th circle druidic spells and 2.95M xp is just short of being able to cast those of 7th circle.

In ToB there's a stronger argument for F/D multiclass, but it's still 6M xp for the coveted 15th level, and she'll never be above 21st druid level (and you're only likely to see this if you play with a party of four or less).

MVP of the recruitable characters is probably Edwin or Haer, of course the EE wild mage, Neera, can be super powerful if you don't mind reloading (I do, so never take wild mage).