Stinking Cloud's save bonus

[CamDawg]

From a Github pull request, citing an earlier GH discussion: Stinking Cloud provides a +2 save bonus to its effects. In oBG2 this was undocumented, but the EEs changed the description assuming it was intentional.

We have made some similar changes--the IWDEE changes to Thrym Extract and the War Hammer +4: Defender and their associated strings--so I'll put it out here for discussion.

[GaxGuy]

I can't see reasonable justification for Stinking Cloud to have a +2 save bonus.  It's not supported by AD&D 2e rules other than DM discretion.

I'd bet it was originally an error in the data, and beamdog was being generous in figuring the error was in the documentation. 

Conversely, maybe it's possible the beamdog CEO had inside information that it was deliberate (DM discretion), but my hunch is that's not the case.

I think the save bonus should be removed in all cases.

[jmerry]

It's not just in the in-game strings. The Stinking Cloud save bonus is also in the pdf manuals that come with the EEs. Well, at least some of them.

Sword Coast Survival Guide, Amn Survival Guide - no mention of the spell.

Mastering Melee and Magic: the +2 is in the spell's description in the BG2EE version but not in the BGEE version. The BGEE version also claims an overly long (1d4+1 rounds) incorrect duration for the incapacitating effect.

Adventurer's Guide: the +2 is in. This one is BGEE only.

If two out of three manuals agree, and the third is obviously inaccurate in another way? I say keep the +2. While it may not have always been intended, it's clearly intended now.

As a matter of gameplay, a party-unfriendly battlefield spell isn't necessarily made worse by being easier to resist. The save bonus makes it easier for your own warriors to fight in the cloud, after all.

[Graion Dilach]

If we're discussing manuals, GoG's digitized original non-EE manuals are conflicting - the oBG1 manual mentions the bonus with the correct duration, the oBG2 one doesn't and has the overly long duration. The oBG1 spell description lacks the bonus and has the overly long duration, the oBG2 spell description doesn't mention the bonus, but has the duration fixed.

And the spell itself has the bonus in oBG1 already.

Basically the only time the spell was accurately described was in the oBG1 manual and everything else got something wrong. Make of that what you will.

[Angel]

My personal opinion (and what I use for MiH F&R) is to go with the source material unless doing so is impossible in the engine or creates serious game play issues.

[polytope]

22 hours ago, jmerry said:

As a matter of gameplay, a party-unfriendly battlefield spell isn't necessarily made worse by being easier to resist. The save bonus makes it easier for your own warriors to fight in the cloud, after all.

Although skeletons (and later in game, Mordies) ignore a Stinking Cloud regardless, as can any PC with sleep immunity (for now, there's another thread on whether the cloud or earthquake etc. are true sleep effects). Conversely, both summoned spiders and characters with Free Action (spell, ring or potion) can operate in a Web.

Since there are existent means to immunize both party members and your choice of summons from both spells there's no strong argument that the saving throws are intentionally staggered to make the one more party friendly. The only argument I see is that some classes have alternately better saves vs spells and death, but a 4 point gap between Web at -2 and Stinking Cloud at +2 makes this usually moot (except for cheaty NPCs with artificially low saves).

This also seems a good time to bring up the seriously bugged duration of the Grease spell, (if it's not already on someone's fix list) which should be tied to the .PRO rather than the feature block, as for other durational AoE magic and as it was in original BG.