HLAs as innate ability component

[KainenMorden]

Do you like to play with this enabled? Does it increase difficulty substantially?

[boof]

On one hand it makes it easier by giving you "free" level 9 spells that don't take up memorization slots.

On the other hand, a planetar can more or less solo majority of the game for you, and being able to have multiple casts of it per rest makes the game stupidly easy.

Edited April 5, 2023 by boof

[polytope]

On 4/6/2023 at 3:35 AM, boof said:

On one hand it makes it easier by giving you "free" level 9 spells that don't take up memorization slots.

On the other hand, a planetar can more or less solo majority of the game for you, and being able to have multiple casts of it per rest makes the game stupidly easy.

There should probably be a separate option to make planetar/deva/elemental prince summons specifically a once-per-day innate (as already the case for paladins) and other HLAs use regular 9th level slots.

It would also be a bit more... believable, if that word can be used about having really powerful extraplanar allies coming when called.

[KainenMorden]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:07 PM, polytope said:

There should probably be a separate option to make planetar/deva/elemental prince summons specifically a once-per-day innate (as already the case for paladins) and other HLAs use regular 9th level slots.

It would also be a bit more... believable, if that word can be used about having really powerful extraplanar allies coming when called.

Do you agree that HLAs as innate abilities makes the game more difficult?

[Endarire]

It depends what HLAs we're talking here.  If you can, for example, win whatever fight(s) you face using your HLAs once per day at most, HLA or not, then it's probably just less convenient to have them as innates.  Otherwise, it's likely a difficulty increase.

[Christian]

Keep in mind that innate HLAs which scale with level (Planetar, Deva, Discs) will be weaker on Dual class characters like Imoen and Nalia. Also they tend to bug out and you can lose them permanently. I had this happen in my game years ago when that component got introduced. Didn't find anything in the changelog that this has been fixed since then.

[Mera]

Not sure about increased difficulty but I do like to use the component.
I feel it makes HLA more "specials" instead of just another spell.
And it also gives back some power to level 9/7 spells that you typically don't use because you've filled all your slots with HLA.
So yeah, more a RP reason than a powergaming one so I'm afraid that's not what you were looking for  

[polytope]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:23 AM, KainenMorden said:

Do you agree that HLAs as innate abilities makes the game more difficult?

Generally yes, but it depends upon the character, Improved Alacrity or Planetar usable just once per day is worse than what a regular mage could do, but being able to fill your lvl 9 slots with Time Stops and still have accessible HLAs might be even more murderous depending on playstyle, i.e. Fighter Mages or even plain mages with Time Stop-> Shape Change (Mindflayer form).

The main reason I didn't use this component last time I played was that every enemy mage beyond about lvl 20 has exactly the same list of HLAs which they'll throw at you, without, it's a bit more diverse and sometimes surprising.

[KainenMorden]

9 hours ago, polytope said:

Generally yes, but it depends upon the character, Improved Alacrity or Planetar usable just once per day is worse than what a regular mage could do, but being able to fill your lvl 9 slots with Time Stops and still have accessible HLAs might be even more murderous depending on playstyle, i.e. Fighter Mages or even plain mages with Time Stop-> Shape Change (Mindflayer form).

The main reason I didn't use this component last time I played was that every enemy mage beyond about lvl 20 has exactly the same list of HLAs which they'll throw at you, without, it's a bit more diverse and sometimes surprising.

Well, I just hope it doesn't bug out like it has for some other players. 

I do plan on another playthrough without this component enabled and trying your mods as well, they seem very interesting. 

Quick side note, do you have any opinion on the rogue rebalancing mod or spell revisions? Any other mods you recommend for a tactical challenge with SCS?

[polytope]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:22 AM, KainenMorden said:

Quick side note, do you have any opinion on the rogue rebalancing mod or spell revisions? Any other mods you recommend for a tactical challenge with SCS?

I've tried Spell Revisions but don't play with it anymore, IMO some spells were excessively nerfed while weak and unpopular choices were boosted to an excessive degree and it wasn't adequately balanced, sorry. The summoned Death Knight and Negative Plane Protection (it had such a short duration for a good reason) stand out in this respect.

Spell Revisions Revised aims to address these issues but it is a work in progress.

Rogue Rebalancing is good, but there are some collectable items you can acquire from the added content that are also overpowered, the new HLAs are reasonable at least compared to vanilla (at least the Time Trap is gone).

More challenging mods which are compatible with SCS? I can't suggest any besides the post-underdark encounter added by Rogue Rebalancing (it's harder than most SCS content at that point).

More challenging mods instead of SCS? Improved Anvil from blackwyrmlair.net, still the hardest after all these years, critics of that mod often complain that it sort of forces a specific party composition and that the repetitive grouping of certain enemies becomes tiresome, but the newest version (which I haven't really tried) has a lot of new options for single class clerics, and hopefully some of the repetitive encounters will be redesigned to be a bit less grindy... there are also some interesting and unique battles introduced though which get away from the sameness (the battles with Demogorgon and the dragon on the penultimate level of Watcher's Keep are much, much harder and have a lot more content than the SCS versions, there's a dracolich in a secret area in the underdark etc.).

Edited April 16, 2023 by polytope

[Bartimaeus]

6 hours ago, polytope said:

Negative Plane Protection (it had such a short duration for a good reason) stand out in this respect

Man, I had no memory of NPP being only 5 rounds in vanilla. But...it's kind of the same old Protection from Petrification problem, really: without its protection, the relevant encounters become unmanageably difficult; with its protection, those encounters get a bit trivialized. Make the protection too short and...what, the player fills up their entire 4th level spellbooks with only Negative Plane Protection when they have a difficult series of vampire encounters? Or worse, they just rest in between every battle so they have their spell slots again? Ugh. Level draining and petrification as currently designed in the official games are two really annoying mechanics that don't leave a lot of operating room to avert besides these stupid "I win" spells. Probably a good idea to use subtledoctor's "level draining has a saving throw" component.

[subtledoctor]

10 hours ago, polytope said:

wasn't adequately balanced, sorry. The summoned Death Knight and Negative Plane Protection (it had such a short duration for a good reason) stand out in this respect.

Agree Death Knight is ridiculous - I love SR but I overwrite that particular spell with aTweaks' Cacofiend. Hard disagree about NPP though. I always hated the vanilla version of NPP for being so nitpicky. It's just weird. Might not be in a normal campaign but with BG2's over-use and under-utilization of vampires, it stands out as terrible IMHO. As Bart says, it's a BG2 analogue of how Pro Petrification is problematic in BG1.

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

without its protection, the relevant encounters become unmanageably difficult; with its protection, those encounters get a bit trivialized

I don't know that vampire encounters without NPP are unmanageably difficult; I like the idea that my tank soaks up some level drains and is left weaker after the encounter. MiH adds level-draining wraiths to the Candlekeep cellars, at a time when I had no access to Restoration, and it made that series of encounters muhc more nail-biting. But the application needs to be fine-tuned for the encounters. I've been experimenting with 1) allowing a saving throw to avoid level drain, which a) reduces its incidence while still making it a realistic threat, and b) gives you other ways to avoid it (Potions of Magic Shielding etc.) This changes level drain to something that weakens you, rather than kills you; if vampires kill you it will generally still be by reducing your hp to 0.

I've also experiemented with giving level drain an 8-hour duration, which doesn't change its immediate threat but reduces the long-term annoyance.

Among the various changes I've tried, SR's giving NPP a longer duration is among the least consequential. It saves a couple spell slots I guess, and alters pre-buffing routines, but it doesn't fundamentally change vampire encounters (which tend to last less than 30 seconds anyway).

[Bartimaeus]

27 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I don't know that vampire encounters without NPP are unmanageably difficult; I like the idea that my tank soaks up some level drains and is left weaker after the encounter.

I was really thinking more when you run into venerated and ancient vampires, the few Bodhi fights (especially if you install the improved Bodhi from SCS...), and maybe a couple of others. No saving throw level draining in those more difficult encounters are...well, certainly quite difficult without any Negative Plane Protection, and I'd say those fights are very likely to last longer than 5 rounds. I have memories of running into those super vampires in Firkraag's lair at like level 9 or 10 and having a very bad time. The more random vampire encounters with generic vampires are obviously not nearly so big a deal.

I'm all for making changes to how both level draining and petrification work, but...it's not something you can assume that other players will want/use, so you kind of have to make do with what you assume the majority of players will have installed.

[KainenMorden]

19 hours ago, polytope said:

I've tried Spell Revisions but don't play with it anymore, IMO some spells were excessively nerfed while weak and unpopular choices were boosted to an excessive degree and it wasn't adequately balanced, sorry. The summoned Death Knight and Negative Plane Protection (it had such a short duration for a good reason) stand out in this respect.

Spell Revisions Revised aims to address these issues but it is a work in progress.

Rogue Rebalancing is good, but there are some collectable items you can acquire from the added content that are also overpowered, the new HLAs are reasonable at least compared to vanilla (at least the Time Trap is gone).

More challenging mods which are compatible with SCS? I can't suggest any besides the post-underdark encounter added by Rogue Rebalancing (it's harder than most SCS content at that point).

More challenging mods instead of SCS? Improved Anvil from blackwyrmlair.net, still the hardest after all these years, critics of that mod often complain that it sort of forces a specific party composition and that the repetitive grouping of certain enemies becomes tiresome, but the newest version (which I haven't really tried) has a lot of new options for single class clerics, and hopefully some of the repetitive encounters will be redesigned to be a bit less grindy... there are also some interesting and unique battles introduced though which get away from the sameness (the battles with Demogorgon and the dragon on the penultimate level of Watcher's Keep are much, much harder and have a lot more content than the SCS versions, there's a dracolich in a secret area in the underdark etc.).

SCS plus tactics is played by some but its a tricky install. 

 

IA just sounds nuts from what I've read but I'll probably try it at some point. 

[WanderingScholar]

19 hours ago, polytope said:

The summoned Death Knight and Negative Plane Protection (it had such a short duration for a good reason) stand out in this respect.

Yes, the Death Knight is very strong and could probably use some adjustments. It's a 7th level summon with 8th and 9th level spell access.

For player use the SR demon scripts check your level and stats to determine the chance of the demon turning hostile on summon. I guess a possible way you could "balance" this is through a player imposed restriction. Instead of save scumming for a non-hostile demon you could accept the risk and consequences. 

For enemy use, the newest versions of SCS reduces demon summoning quite significantly, restricting it to only liches and a handful of named casters. Because of this it likely won't have much of an overall impact on your game if you include it. 

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I was really thinking more when you run into venerated and ancient vampires, the few Bodhi fights (especially if you install the improved Bodhi from SCS...), and maybe a couple of others. No saving throw level draining in those more difficult encounters are...well, certainly quite difficult without any Negative Plane Protection, and I'd say those fights are very likely to last longer than 5 rounds. I have memories of running into those super vampires in Firkraag's lair at like level 9 or 10 and having a very bad time. The more random vampire encounters with generic vampires are obviously not nearly so big a deal.

It's also worth mentioning that the vampires are given another trick up their sleeve in their ability to drain CON on hit from SCS.  This addition gives vampires a bit more teeth since they're a major plot monster in SoA, and the player has to stay on their toes regardless of having NPP or not. In fact, those of you that played older versions of SCS probably remember this ability got nerfed in v32 because of how deadly it was in major vampire fights. 

Players have a massive disincentive to send unprotected party members into combat with level draining creatures given the hassle of having to restore them + the penalties of level drain itself. In the base game, most people would just pass around items that granted NPP to appropriate NPC's when the encounter called for it. If you think the duration is now too long I'd wonder what your trying to aim for. Aside from a handful of encounters like Improved Shade Lord with SCS, I doubt you'd memorize more than 1 or 2 of these anyway. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by WanderingScholar