SubtleMods: SubtleD's Spell Tweaks

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, Connelly said:

By the way, minor thing, you got the specialists and school rebalance components using the same text for the installer

 Thanks for the heads up!

54 minutes ago, Delior said:

Hello, I installed the latest version of this mod from Github, and I selected the innate cantrips component and the component to move Spell Thrust to level one.  I rolled a sorceror and upon preparing my first cantrip I was surprised to see Spell Thrust show up in the list.  I am not sure if that was intentional or not (that seems OP to me FWIW), but in any event it did not work.  If I selected to prepare spell thrust, it would just bring up the selection menu again until I picked something else.  Drowse did work when I selected it.  

I did notice some issues there - the targeting was wrong for Spell Thrust, and Deflective Shell was not properly tagged as a spell protection. Those are fixed in v2.4.2.

But I did not have any problem picking Spell Thrust as a cantrip, or using it once I fixed the targeting issue. I tried on BG2 v2.6, both with and without the additional "Move Spell Thrust to Level 1" tweak.

Do you really think this increased access to Spell Thrust is OP? To me this feels more like a convenience tweak than an outright power-up. Because the spell itself it no t very powerful - it can only remove up to level 5 protections, and even if you have infinite uses of it, it still requires spending a round to cast it and take down enemies' protections. And there is opportunity cost in having it ready.

I did notice that, while the Innate Cantrips component adds ST to HIDESPL.2da so that CharGen/sorcerers cannot pick it, the component neglects to remove scrolls. And I think the later "Move to Level 1" tweak removes it from HIDESPL.2da and this once again makes it available to Chargen/sorcerers. But... I don't actually hate that? I kind of think it is nice to have it available either as a cantrip or as a 1st-level spell. Sorcerers after all can only prepare two cantrips, mages three, so maybe you want to put Spell thrust in one of many 1st-level slots, and use those fewer cantrip slots for other spells. It's unusual, but again, kind of feels like a convenience tweak to be able to treat the spell either way.

I am happy to hear other thoughts on this, however.

[Delior]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Do you really think this increased access to Spell Thrust is OP? To me this feels more like a convenience tweak than an outright power-up. Because the spell itself it no t very powerful - it can only remove up to level 5 protections, and even if you have infinite uses of it, it still requires spending a round to cast it and take down enemies' protections. And there is opportunity cost in having it ready.

Perhaps it FEELS more OP than it actually is since that spell is only available to mages via a single scroll after the bandit camp boss fight, and IIRC even that was only added in the enhanced edition.  It does alter the balance of early game battles with SCS installed, particularly against the many parties of assassins, although even in that case it doesn't make those fights easy per se since they still often have stoneskin and mirror image, for which spell thrust does nothing.  Since it doesn't change the balance drastically, I did like the idea of moving it level 1 so that those of us who use SCS but refuse to do basilisk or other leveling cheese at least have something to throw at those pesky assassins instead of waiting for protections to expire, but having infinite uses of it still seems a bit OP to me.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Delior

[subtledoctor]

Huh, I find that even with SCS AI installed, very few mages in BG1 actually use much in the way of spell protections. And by BG2 you are at the point of having Secret Word and Pierce Shield, which are completely superior. Although, I only use the AI enhancements, not many of the tactical encounter components, so maybe your encounters are tuned a little more toward BG2-style gameplay.

Anyway, like I say, one option is to simply prepare other cantrips instead, and use it as a 1st-level spell. Thorn Grasp is wildly useful in BG1. As are Minor Illusion/Conjure Rabbit. And I could see Deflective Shell saving your bacon here and there in BG1 (especially if you have SR's AoE Deflection, in which case it would block a Fireball.)

Btw there may be a bug with Magic Bolt - I am looking into it now. EDIT - fixed in v2.4.3.

Edited October 18, 2023 by subtledoctor

[mickabouille]

Hi @subtledoctor.

This is absolutely not a blocker, but the message when a component is skipped because spell_rev is not installed is "This component is not available for Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or Icewind Dale 2."

For example there is

// -----------------------------
// 50: SPELL TWEAKS: HASTE/SLOW CHANGES (Subtledoctor)
// -----------------------------
BEGIN @50
DESIGNATED 50
REQUIRE_PREDICATE (ENGINE_IS ~bgee bg2ee iwdee eet~) @1 
REQUIRE_PREDICATE (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~dvsrv4here.mrk~) @1

 

That causes no error but the message can be a little confusing.

[subtledoctor]

Thanks for the heads-up @mickabouille

Version 2.5 fixed a bug in the way the Innate Cantrips component works.

Version 2.6 fixes the SR-related install messages, AND adds a new component: #83, "Cantrips for Familiars."

Only available if you have component #61 "Innate Cantrips" installed, this will allow familiars to use innate cantrips just like your mage or sorcerer can. This is a more lightweight alternative to #82 "Imbue Familiars" which gives them spells of up to 5th level... but you CAN install both together if you want your familiar out there slinging lots of magic next to your party. Cantrips for Familiars does NOT need the bigger familiars component to be installed - it should work with vanilla familiars and with those from other mods, though that is untested. YMMV.

If anyone did an install recently and wants cantrips for their familiars, let me know, I can probably write it up as a hotfix quite easily. (I just applied it as a hotfix to my own game.)

Also, I'm not sure if I mentiond it anywhere, but if you have #61 Innate Cantrips installed and then go on to install my Combat Skille & Proficiencies mod, the latest version of CSP will allow thieves to choose innate cantrips as a magical skill instead of/in addition to the other spells they can learn. (Thieves can only prepare one cantrip each day, however.)

Cheers.

Edited October 30, 2023 by subtledoctor

[mickabouille]

Hi @subtledoctor sorry, I have another small nitpick

The description for the modified Waves of Fatigue says

> Saving Throw: None

And then

> Furthermore, if someone affected by this spell fails a saving throw vs. petrification/polymorph, ...

Which one is true ?

[Chitown Willie]

SD,

Not 100% certain, but I believe "~SUBTLED_SPELL_TWEAKS/SUBTLED_SPELL_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2321 // Move Spell Thrust to 1st Level: 2.6.1" is adding Spell Thrust as a Known Spell to all Bard and Wizard spellbooks.

Not sure if that was intended or not.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Chitown Willie said:

Not 100% certain, but I believe "~SUBTLED_SPELL_TWEAKS/SUBTLED_SPELL_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2321 // Move Spell Thrust to 1st Level: 2.6.1" is adding Spell Thrust as a Known Spell to all Bard and Wizard spellbooks.

Not sure if that was intended or not.

Oh. Very possible. The recent mod re-shuffle had component mashups in a few places. Stuff like this is a conundrum; I don’t know how to read whether a given NPC has Spell Thrust as a known spell. So say, hypothetically, that Imoen does not know the original 3rd-level spell, but Nalia does. Say Haer’Dalis knows it, but Garrick does not. That 3rd-level spell is being hidden, so Nalia and H’D lose it; at this point, what should I do about the new 1st-level version? 

Option 1: nobody gets it. This means Nalia and H’D lose a spell, which sucks. 

Option 2: everyone gets it. This mean Imoen snd Garrick get an extra known spell for free. 

Given that we are talking about a low-level spell here, which should not be of much consequence in the long term, I decided to err on the side of being generous, and just give it to everyone. 

[CrevsDaak]

15 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Stuff like this is a conundrum; I don’t know how to read whether a given NPC has Spell Thrust as a known spell.

All the known spells on any given creature are stored in 12 bytes structs regardless of their type and level, so to check one would do something like this:

COPY_EXISTING aerie12.cre override
  FOR (i = 0; i < LONG_AT 0x2a4; i += 1) BEGIN
    READ_ASCII (0x2d4 + (i * 0x0c)) splres (8)
    PATCH_IF "%splres%" STR_EQ "spwi321" BEGIN
      // do thing
    END  
  END
BUT_ONLY

Extending this to re-write it into a level 1 spell (you'd just write_short at 0xd4 + i*0x0c + 0x8) is fairly easy, though I'll have to say that I don't know how your mod handles adding spells.

[cdds]

The save vs. death against level-drain effects is such a cool idea! I never noticed that component in your other mods before you re-organized the spell tweaks here, is this component completely novel for this mod or did I just miss it before somehow?

Edited November 2, 2023 by cdds

[mickabouille]

This is very strange, I tried the new identify spell (both from this mod and from tome and blood 1.0) and could not get it to work like it did (in T&B pre-1.0), with the spell cast not from the item that brings up the UI that allows you to choose items and shows something like "number of uses left: 2"

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, mickabouille said:

This is very strange, I tried the new identify spell (both from this mod and from tome and blood 1.0) and could not get it to work like it did (in T&B pre-1.0), with the spell cast not from the item that brings up the UI that allows you to choose items and shows something like "number of uses left: 2"

It’s working in my install. So the possibilities are 1) it doesn’t work out of the box but my admittedly complex install has mod interactions that help a mod to work better, rather than breaking it? (Rare, but possible.) Or 2) your different mod interactions are breaking it. 

If you have UI mods it might be #2. The modded Identify spell uses Bubb’s B3_Identify function, which is UI black magic that I don’t pretend to understand. But it’s not guaranteed to work with all UI over hauls.

(No UI-based mod is guaranteed to work with any other UI-based mod, the situation there is not great. Personally, I find it cool to see how UI modding techniques enable technical game tweaks (think Revised Identify, or Bubb’s Spell menu, or Dual to Kit), and those are generally all compatible. But I also understand how some players will be drawn to flashy new UI chrome.)

[Delior]

Yeah, as much as I admire Pecca's work or Lefreut's complete UI overhauls, they just have too many compatibility issues with other mods for my tolerance (SCS's difficulty slider gets borked in all of them, just as one example).  I'm not pointing any fingers, just to be clear - I get that modifying the UI is tricky.  I've just learned to be satisfied with a selection of EEUITweaks that I know won't mess anything else up.  

[Connelly]

Something I've noticed, but I've been unable to find a cause yet. In an IWD install with Innate Cantrips, making new choices doesn't reset the previous selections, so you can end up eventually with all cantrips available to the same character and bloating the innate skills menu. Just something to keep an eye out for.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Connelly said:

Something I've noticed, but I've been unable to find a cause yet. In an IWD install with Innate Cantrips, making new choices doesn't reset the previous selections, so you can end up eventually with all cantrips available to the same character and bloating the innate skills menu. Just something to keep an eye out for.

I noticed that in my game as well, and I believe it has already been fixed in version 2.6. But I guess I did not advertise the fix here. Sorry!

Meantime, this hotfix should fix it in a game in progress (it's how I fixed my own).

Edited November 3, 2023 by subtledoctor