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Should Aerie be kitted?


Grim Squeaker

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CamDawg edit: split from the original topic, as it looks like we're in a completely different discussion here.

 

I'd suggest:

 

Claggedin for Dwarves (because he was mentioned in BG1 and can develop into a subcomponent for Yeslick)

And what-s-his-name diety Aerie worships for Gnomes, since yes, you've guessed, it can be used as a subcomoponent for Aerie and Quayle.

 

While implementing a kit for it might be an idea, I definitely think Aerie shouldn't be able to be kitted with it. A kit (e.g. Morninglord of Lathander) is meant to be a representative of the faith, appointed by the faith. Aerie is just a worshipper of the god.

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A kitted cleric iirc can dual-class, so I don't see how a multiclassed character cannot do that; after all an MC continues his clerical carrier, while the DC'd character 'abandoned' it all together :) Or at least that's how it looks to my untrained eye. But I really don't care. I just think that if a character is pronouncing his god's name every other minute, he might as well be called a cleric of that god. If kits are balanced, that should not overpower the character.

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Yeah, I really don't see the distinction either. I mean--gods have priests who aren't "representatives of the faith, appointed by the faith"? What are they, then? Gods have lots of lay worshipers, conspicuously different from priests in not having any spells or the abilty to Turn Undead. "Just a worshiper of the god" would be a single-classed wizard, as all the single-classed dwarven fighters in the game who shout "By Moradin's hammer!" are just worshipers of Moradin.

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The pnp distinction is pretty much that the cleric generally serves a god's interests in regards to his lay followers (recruiting new members, reading the gospel, healing the sick, giving out advice, etc), whilst speciality priests serve a god's interests in regards to his portfolio (acting on it, preserving it, etc). Obviously in the case of some gods (those whose portfolio includes justice, knowledge, helping people, and so on) this means there's a great deal of overlap

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I see nothing in this statement that tells me that a Multi-Classed character is less eligible to care about the diety's portfolio than a single-classed one or a dual-classed one. :)

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I think that comes down to how an individual sees Aerie. I mainly wanted to point out that someone who was "only a worshiper" and not "a representative of the faith, appointed by the faith" wouldn't be a priest at all :)

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I see nothing in this statement that tells me that a Multi-Classed character is less eligible to care about the diety's portfolio than a single-classed one or a dual-classed one.  :party:

A person who has interests out side the realms of the divine (be they arcane, thieving or fighting) by very definition cannot be focused on his god's portfolio :). Of course there are exceptions (obviously a cleric of Mask should be allowed to pursue thieving activities), and in such circumstances speciality priests are allowed to multi-class.

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I see nothing in this statement that tells me that a Multi-Classed character is less eligible to care about the diety's portfolio than a single-classed one or a dual-classed one.  :)

 

Yeah, thats not the issue at all. A multiclass character probably should be kittable. However, the issue is Aerie. One of the kits is a Morninglord of Lathander, which to my knowledge is the title of a member of the temple of Lathander i.e. you've got to actually join the order and there might be some trials or something. They are the kind of person, who as Nick says, recruits followers etc. In my opinion, Aerie isn't this kind of person. She hasn't pledged her life to being a priest (for lack of a better word) of Baevan. She's just a cleric who has found her faith and prays to that god for her spells. In my mind is the distinction between being a Christian (Cleric of Baevan) and a Minister (Thingamidooly of Baevan).

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From memory of Demihuman Deities, there are a couple of limitations to the speciality priests of Baevan (Wildwanderers? IIRC) that are relevant to this discussion:

 

1) They cannot multi-class

2) They must be gnomes

 

Of course, it's a while since I read this book, so I could be wrong.

 

Charles

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I see nothing in this statement that tells me that a Multi-Classed character is less eligible to care about the diety's portfolio than a single-classed one or a dual-classed one.  :)

 

Yeah, thats not the issue at all. A multiclass character probably should be kittable. However, the issue is Aerie. One of the kits is a Morninglord of Lathander, which to my knowledge is the title of a member of the temple of Lathander i.e. you've got to actually join the order and there might be some trials or something. They are the kind of person, who as Nick says, recruits followers etc. In my opinion, Aerie isn't this kind of person. She hasn't pledged her life to being a priest (for lack of a better word) of Baevan. She's just a cleric who has found her faith and prays to that god for her spells. In my mind is the distinction between being a Christian (Cleric of Baevan) and a Minister (Thingamidooly of Baevan).

Oh. I see. You're thinking that everyone who has any faith irl would be a cleric in the Realms.

 

The vast majority of a deity's worshipers are not clerics. If the Christian religion was abruptly transported whole cloth into the Forgotten Realms with its god attached, only priests, members of the clergy--in other words, only people who are clerics IRL--would be clerics there. Deities' descriptions in D&D books include separate entries for "alignment required for clerics" and "alignment required for lay followers" (the latter being often significantly less restrictive). Lay followers are fighters and wizards, sorcerers, rogues, and so on, and non-adventurers...never clerics, because clerics are, by definition, members of the clergy. A fighter who worships Tyr can be as devout as any RL Christian, but is a fighter, not a cleric. If your perception of Aerie was accurate--if she wasn't a member of the clergy of Baervan Wildwanderer--then she would simply be a wizard, not a cleric/wizard.

 

(Other issues, of species and multiclass, aside, because I think establishing that cleric=priest and lay worshiper=someone who doesn't get spells from the god is much more important than how this mod deals with one character.)

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According to Faith & Avatars, members of the clergy can be of any class, but someone belonging to a class in the priest group (clerics, crusaders, druids, speciality priests, monks, mystics, shamans, etc) *must* be a member of the clergy.

 

However, there's at least one possible exception to this in BG2 already, in the form of Viconia. She never once mentions having ever even met any clergy of Shar, so for all we know Shar came to Viconia in a vision or series of visions.

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All these fine points are way above my head; my arithmetics is very simple: A Cleric who worships God A = Cleric of God A, instead of dividing it into two distinctive categories. FR just makes it too complicated for its own good. But, Aerie aside, Yeslick and especially Tiax imo are quite viable multiclasses for kits :)

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I see nothing in this statement that tells me that a Multi-Classed character is less eligible to care about the diety's portfolio than a single-classed one or a dual-classed one.  :)

 

Yeah, thats not the issue at all. A multiclass character probably should be kittable. However, the issue is Aerie. One of the kits is a Morninglord of Lathander, which to my knowledge is the title of a member of the temple of Lathander i.e. you've got to actually join the order and there might be some trials or something. They are the kind of person, who as Nick says, recruits followers etc. In my opinion, Aerie isn't this kind of person. She hasn't pledged her life to being a priest (for lack of a better word) of Baevan. She's just a cleric who has found her faith and prays to that god for her spells. In my mind is the distinction between being a Christian (Cleric of Baevan) and a Minister (Thingamidooly of Baevan).

Oh. I see. You're thinking that everyone who has any faith irl would be a cleric in the Realms.

 

The vast majority of a deity's worshipers are not clerics. If the Christian religion was abruptly transported whole cloth into the Forgotten Realms with its god attached, only priests, members of the clergy--in other words, only people who are clerics IRL--would be clerics there. Deities' descriptions in D&D books include separate entries for "alignment required for clerics" and "alignment required for lay followers" (the latter being often significantly less restrictive). Lay followers are fighters and wizards, sorcerers, rogues, and so on, and non-adventurers...never clerics, because clerics are, by definition, members of the clergy. A fighter who worships Tyr can be as devout as any RL Christian, but is a fighter, not a cleric. If your perception of Aerie was accurate--if she wasn't a member of the clergy of Baervan Wildwanderer--then she would simply be a wizard, not a cleric/wizard.

 

(Other issues, of species and multiclass, aside, because I think establishing that cleric=priest and lay worshiper=someone who doesn't get spells from the god is much more important than how this mod deals with one character.)

 

No, I'm not thinking like that at all. I'm saying there's a difference between a cleric who is given his spells by a god and a cleric who has decided to devote their entire life into the service of that god, in their temple, taking vows, teaching acolytes etc. Aerie is a cleric of Baevan i.e. thats where she gets her clerical powers from but she isn't any kind of religious authority figure. She's just a cleric that worships that god and is granted spells. Its an enormous difference to me.

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Well, to be honest, none of the characters qualifies to be a speciality priest then, including Charname. He might just spend a bit of time in the Stronghold, but other than that he is not much of a missionary or a cruisader for his god. :)

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