Tree of Life gut check

[Usually Lurking]

When you make the "gut check" at the Tree of Life, what are they (the NPC's) really fighting for? Why do they stay, what makes it worth the risk? Okay there's the city of Suldanesselar and of course the PC's soul, I could maybe see an argument for Ellesime's life as well if the NPC is an Elf. That all seems obvious, but I just feel like there should be more to it than that. The soul is the #1 thing for the PC, but with the diversity of NPC's Bioware and MOD...what makes them stay and fight with the PC instead of saying "yep, your soul = your battle and I kind of like living...see ya"?

 

Any input would be appreciated and responses can be based on your personal feelings or the viewpoint of a character, <CHARNAME> or MOD you've created.

 

 

Thanks,

UL

[jcompton]

How timely. Supplementary reading on this subject can be found here: http://chosenofmystra.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1725

[Domi]

In Kivan and Deheriana's case it is that obvious solution: I am an Elf, and I am a good Elf. Irenicus is tearing the tapestry of the Elevn Spirit appart, therefore he must be stopped for the sake of the Elvendom. Friendship with PC adds another layer, and, if Deheriana was summoned, there is a debt to be paid. And Kivan is good, very good about paying his debts. He is not a forgiving man, and while he fears to die and lose Arvanaith, I can't see him stepping back from bringing Irenicus to justice; PC has his or her chance to release him earlier on though, and he will then depart. Another subtelty is if PC is in love with him. Then the Tree of Life is different all together, and the question asked: 'Will you die for me?" takes on another meaning.

[Usually Lurking]

@ Domi -

Irenicus is tearing the tapestry of the Elevn Spirit appart

I think that is part of the something else I was trying to figure out. Playing through I always got the impression that I was supposed to feel that Suldanesselar was the center of Elven life, culture and that the Tree facilitated their link with Nature and pantheon of gods. The problem was that I always felt like though losing the city would be a terrible loss it wouldn't necessarily be the end of Elven life and culture.

 

@ jcompton - interesting reading. Much of what was discussed regarding the Tree of Life were things I had thought about and were part of the spark to this post.

 

 

I understand why some of the NPC's stay and fight by the PC's side but why others would is less clear. Furthermore why would a MOD NPC stay if not in a romance with the PC. Especially since they don't really have the history with the PC that most of the Bioware group does. Even a "good" NPC would still have a basic survival instinct and one with an intelligence above say 5 should be able to figure out Irenicus is damn powerful and may be someone they really don't want to mess with that much. I like the idea mentioned in the link provided by jcompton of a PC behavior check to see if the NPC thinks the PC is worth fighting with (i.e. did a good character enter every house and open/empty the dressers and chests, or did they kill the guy (I don't remember his name off the top of my head) in the last quest from Mae'Var or did they let him live and just get his daggar from him). I've played some MOD NPC's that I've really liked and others I didn't (personal preferences). While the stories are usually infinitely better than the Bioware ones, the place they all seem to fail is that I feel none have broken the Bioware mold in those places it needs to be broken (again personal preference/opinion).

 

The reason I originally asked the question is that I'm toying with the idea of making an NPC and this is one of the areas that stand out to me as questionable. When I say "toying with the idea" I mean I'm just starting to flesh the story out and see if it's something I really even want to do. Anyway, I can think of many reasons why this particular NPC would stay and almost as many as why they wouldn't. I have no desire to create a reload fest to get the "correct" response. I also wouldn't want the PC to feel screwed out of all the time they'd spent with the NPC just because the NPC decided to leave the party at this point, yet I would want to stay true to the character. So basically I just wanted to get a feel for what the players felt as to why the NPC's stayed, and also from those who have created a MOD NPC as to why their NPC stayed when the prudent thing might have been to cut ones losses and take a graceful exit.

 

Again thanks for any and all input,

UL

[Domi]

I think that is part of the something else I was trying to figure out. Playing through I always got the impression that I was supposed to feel that Suldanesselar was the center of Elven life, culture and that the Tree facilitated their link with Nature and pantheon of gods. The problem was that I always felt like though losing the city would be a terrible loss it wouldn't necessarily be the end of Elven life and culture.

 

No, it probably won't. I am heavily influenced by Dorotea's idea of the Tree beeing tied into the Mithal, which offer the protection to Suldanessellar. It is relatively clear from the game that the Tree serves as a conduit between Sul and Rillifane (the poem in the temple etc).

 

Now, if you take into an account the geopolitical situation - and BioWARE had exaggerated Sul's significance (again, Doro's information), making it from a small elven settlement in a Royal Capital of the Forest of Tethir.

 

The Elves in FR at the moment of the game are in Retreat - they are losing their lands, and the Forest of Tethir is important to the Elvendom, as a part of the historical, now lost, Elven Empire that span to the Elven Court (Cormanthyr iirc) - sorry if I sound disjointed, but I am tired Hence the loss of Suldanessellar I guess compares to the loss of Evereska - one of what? Two major Elven strongholds on Faerun (Evereska and the Elven Court). I don't think it would be as big of a blow as a rape of Evermeet, and we were assured by FR that the Elvendom survived even the destruction of Evereska and Evermeet, but really, it is quite optimistic of FR to think so for Cunningham's sake.

 

Elves are communal being, all of them kin, all of them connected via the Elven Spirit. The imminent distruction of a large Elven City would have been a big blow to the Elvendom, hurting more than those who would have died immediately in Irenicus' attack. Especially a City that has a close tie to Seldarine (Rillifane).

 

Another concern is that we do not know if Irenicus is entering Seldarine or the Human Pantheon as a diety. I think he'd like to enter Seldarine, since his vengeance is directed not only against Ellesime, but aginst her grand-father as well. Hence, we are having a real threat of an Evil aligned Diety raised to a status of an Elven God - which is quite nasty, providing that iirc the only corrupted elven diety was Corellon's wife, Lolth, and she, initially was good as well.

 

In other words, I think that the threat to the Elvendom is significant enough for any non-evil aligned Elf to stand against Irenicus's attempt.

 

OK, I will stop trying to appear more knowledgeable than I am right now Let those who have a better knowledge of he Elven Lore correct me.

[BigRob]

Well, I figure I'll throw my 2 coppers in here for Aklon.

 

In some ways, Aklon is a bit of a cop-out in these terms, because he only joins the party after you save his life and he swears an oath to help the player. Without that oath, he's not going to join the party, much less go wandering into the jaws of doom. He's curious and not a coward, but he knows when it's time to be somewhere else. With the oath, he feels bound by his own honour to help CHARNAME until he considers the debt paid. Of course, if he considers the PC a friend, or if the PC is his lover, then he's not going to abandon them to keep his own skin intact.

 

That said, there will be a chance that Aklon will leave at the Tree of Life, but it will be based on whether or not you've aggravated him enough for him to actively dislike the character. That will be based on how you treat him, as well as some of the actions you take in-game. I've got a list of actions, both good and evil, that draw his ire and if he's too near the tipping point at the Tree of Life, he's gone.

[jcompton]

While the stories are usually infinitely better than the Bioware ones, the place they all seem to fail is that I feel none have broken the Bioware mold in those places it needs to be broken (again personal preference/opinion). 

 

Like I said, there are at least two published mods which have done this. And I think it reflects rather poorly on the characters as a result because they are by definition less reliable companions than every other available option, and basically only to highlight their self-interest and lack of confidence in the PC as battlemaster. There are lots of other ways you can do that without removing a character from the game. Permanent NPC departure in general has proved to be highly unpopular.

[Kulyok]

No, it probably won't. I am heavily influenced by Dorotea's idea of the Tree beeing tied into the Mithal, which offer the protection to Suldanessellar. It is relatively clear from the game that the Tree serves as a conduit between Sul and Rillifane (the poem in the temple etc).

 

Now, if you take into an account the geopolitical situation - and BioWARE had exaggerated Sul's significance (again, Doro's information), making it from a small elven settlement in a Royal Capital of the Forest of Tethir.

 

That's a brilliant explanation, but I believe some things are better be taken into account:

 

1) It is not canon, so it is controversial. I myself would avoid controversial issues.

2) If the player has not spoken to Demin, the only thing he knows is that Irenicus is an elf(after battle with Bodhi), and Rillifane's words about Irenicus joining the Seldarine through Ellesime and the Tree of Life. Nothing else.

3) It is the Tree of Life. The last battle. The main thing PC is interested in is NPC's loyalty to him/her. If NPC goes far into the Elven lore instead, it may look out of context next to Bioware NPCs.

[Meira]

With Amber there is a chance that she'll leave. That will only happen if you first question her loyalty, which as already pointed out, should have been proved many times over by that time you reach the Tree of Life. After that you you'll have to be very clear with suggesting that she might want to leave, and even then she wont do that if she thinks well enough of you. If you have romanced or befriended with her she'll automatically think well enough of you. So it's a pretty slim chance and requires quite determined player to do that.

[Kulyok]

By the way, another interesting(related) question: should an NPC leave the party of their own volition at all? Another roleplaying vs gameplay comfort issue, I guess.

 

When writing, I am naturally tempted to make the consequences as various as possible, i.e. leaving if an especially evil deed is committed, etc. But when playing, I get annoyed, reload and try again, i.e. if Keldorn objects to me killing Demin, I kill him first and revive him after the battle.

 

So, where is the happy medium? At the moment, I am inclining towards verbal reaction only. But still, I have doubts.

[Domi]

I am talking about the Elven lore/mindset as pertaining to Kivan. I would not dream of deciding for other people's characters.

 

When writing, I am naturally tempted to make the consequences as various as possible, i.e. leaving if an especially evil deed is committed, etc. But when playing, I get annoyed, reload and try again, i.e. if Keldorn objects to me killing Demin, I kill him first and revive him after the battle.

 

To me there is no question that Keldorn leaving in this case is the only appropriate course of actions, unless you'd like to have a complex dialogue, where PC can somehow aquit himself.... Which would be rather cumbersome, I agree, to account for all such things. Now, I guess I will have to put provisions for Kivan leaving in anger if PC goes around slaughtering prominent Elves in Suldanessellar.

[Andyr]

While the stories are usually infinitely better than the Bioware ones, the place they all seem to fail is that I feel none have broken the Bioware mold in those places it needs to be broken (again personal preference/opinion). 

 

Like I said, there are at least two published mods which have done this. And I think it reflects rather poorly on the characters as a result because they are by definition less reliable companions than every other available option, and basically only to highlight their self-interest and lack of confidence in the PC as battlemaster. There are lots of other ways you can do that without removing a character from the game. Permanent NPC departure in general has proved to be highly unpopular.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If an NPC really didn't feel like sticking their neck out for the PC at the end, how would you suggest would be a good way to go about it?

[Domi]

My vote goes for removing that end to be honest, because I franckly do not see the point of the tree of life - the NPCs were fighting tough battles and horrible opponents with you at every turn. Why not ask them if they want to fight Demigorgon, Lavok, Bodhi or the Shadow Dragon? Why not ask them after they had died and were ressurected en routine combat?

[Andyr]

I think it's to try to give some sense of dramatic buildup, i.e. this really is the end.

[Domi]

Appart from that it is not....