Falling in Love with IWD2

[Domi]

[RANT]

 

I started this project because I could not face making a minigame either in IE (Total COnversion) or NWN2, and the dialogues were accumulating.

 

But the more I work on IWD2, the more enamored I become with the game and the work that went into it.

 

For example, I was working on IWD2 dialogue files adding interjections, and I was impressed by how detailed IWD2 creators were about voicing - they still have long, thorough comments all over Oswald's file as to what he should sound like.

 

When I look at the writing in the game files, especially in the initial areas, I am honestly stunned by the fact that they did have *very* strong writers, and did not bother to spend extra on NPC development. The dialogues are much more complex in IWD2 than in BG2, with a lot of things about the speaker taken into account. The texts are great. The only explanation I can think of was that BlackIsle had the authrization to use BG1/IWD1 variant of the IE to build the IWD2 variant. At the time of BG1, NPCs development was not exactly the main attraction, and in a way BG1 and IWD1 concepts of handling the party were equally valid. IWD2 probably started with a severely disfigured engine as far as joinable NPC went, could not restore it (probably thanks to BioWARE-BlackIsle divorce) and it came long after BG2 and right before NWN which got most of IWD player-base, ie the guys who did not care overly much about NPCs, but wanted 3ed hack-and-slash.

 

There are a few bummers as far as the main story-line unveiling is concerned - I am not that fond of having to revisit the same places that in IWD1, since it feels like they do it to recycle the areas and investing in an alternative path through the game siding with Chimera in a few key moments would have netted a big pay-back... On the good side there is complexity to the villians, there are imaginative subplots, there are rather neat encounters along the way. And it surely makes more sense than BG2's main plot.

 

Where IWD series beat BG series hands down is artwork. The artwork is great. Music, voicing, area art.... The GUI is fantastic, convenient, one wishes that BioWARE learnt from that when they came up with NWN monstrosity....

 

Ah, well, it feels to me that IWD2 is by far more underappreciated than another unfinished games like PST and KOTOR2. AT least they have its die-hard fans while IWD2 is half-forgotten and mentioned with a scorn. Which it just does not deserve. [/RANT]

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Yes, but the game also has its weaknesses. Mostly, the gameplay, which consists of endless areas filled with goblins/orcs/priests/undead/whatever to kill. Lots and lots of combat, and most of it fairly similar since most foes use very simple tactics. Though admittedly, BI tried hard to introduce variety with ambushes, kegs of blasting, etc. It can be fun once in a while, but I prefer BG's flavour.

 

The story is not at all bad, and I liked the villains. However, it is rather peripheral to your characters, so I never really got involved. Too... impersonal. It more or less develops in the background whilst you are mostly hacking through yet another batch of Orcs.

 

This was a deliberate choice, I would imagine. After all, the game is a sequel, and I think the developers didn't want to depart much from Icewind Dale 1's formula. It's not for lack of effort... they put in tons of situations where the game reacts to your race, your skills or your ability scores. Testing your mod I was surprised to see quite a few dialogue options with my high intelligence wizard that I never encountered with previous parties. These little touches tend to drown in the combat, though.

 

The gameworld also feels more artificial than in BG. You linearly progress through every single area in the game, and each one is filled with challenges for you to overcome. You never feel like you're really trekking through the wilderness, like in BG. I feel like I've been progressing through a shooting gallery.

 

All in all, I would rate ID2 as technically very good. A well written story, good looking areas, good artwork, good voice acting, great music. (The track outside the Black Raven monastery has to be my favourite. But there's not enough of it.) A lot of attention to detail, and quite a good atmosphere.

But nowhere is the game inspired. Nowhere does it make me really care about what's happening, at no time do I really become drawn into the world of Icewind Dale. It becomes an exercise in tactical combat instead. Which is well and good from time to time, but does not make for a great game.

 

Still, Icewind Dale is tons better than the sorry excuse for a story that came in the Neverwinter Nights box, for example. I agree it does not deserve scorn. But neither can I bring myself to love it, like I do Planescape Torment and KotOR 2 both.

[Raven_Song]

And it surely makes more sense than BG2's main plot.

 

Tis true as much as I love BG2 the plot sucks bug time, and is the main reason I voted Morrowind ahead of it as my favourite RPG in a survey over at Gamebanshee.

 

Icewind Dale II came in 3rd for me, because when all is said and done I really enjoyed the NPC interaction in BG2, but who knows with the success of this project it could be moving up.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Yeah, I forgot to adress that one but it's true that ID2's plot worked a lot better than chase-the-wizard did. BG2 wins out on immersion, characters and gameplay, but the plot in many way is the weakest link.

 

I still like the BG1 plot best, though. The iron throne conspiracy and Sarevok's double bluff are fun and quite subtle, if you disregard the villains incredible sloppiness where their correspondence is concerned.

[jester]

There are a few bummers as far as the main story-line unveiling is concerned - I am not that fond of having to revisit the same places that in IWD1, since it feels like they do it to recycle the areas and investing in an alternative path through the game siding with Chimera in a few key moments would have netted a big pay-back... On the good side there is complexity to the villians, there are imaginative subplots, there are rather neat encounters along the way. And it surely makes more sense than BG2's main plot.

 

Where IWD series beat BG series hands down is artwork. The artwork is great. Music, voicing, area art.... The GUI is fantastic, convenient, one wishes that BioWARE learnt from that when they came up with NWN monstrosity....

 

@revisiting areas/alternate path

 

That path would need a partial conversion of the game as siding with the twins should by no means have such a half assed outcome as siding with Bodhi. Perhaps the defence of Targos is forced upon you, but as you venture forth you should be able to defect. Not only but especially when playing a Drow priestess of Bane or someone else reviled by the townspeople

 

I may be the complete opposite of most players in that regard, but I very much enjoy revisiting the sites of my old crimes in games. Especially while rumours of fellow adventurers long lost in the mist of time are still about. The places in the Dales feel a lot more mystical than in the south. The Severed Hand, the Dragon's Eye and Kuldahar felt like revisiting history. With a twist.

 

@artwork/music

 

The music is indead a strong suit of IWD(2) as is its bestiary. Very often I have just started IWD to watch the opening sequence by Justin Sweet. I always preferred his character portrait style to everything else and all my games are played with his images.

 

The north is the true place of reckoning for adventurers of all callings.

 

But nowhere is the game inspired. Nowhere does it make me really care about what's happening, at no time do I really become drawn into the world of Icewind Dale.

 

It is funny you would say that in a way that exactly matches my feelings for the completely unmodded BG2. I finally came to replay IWD more often than BG2 (Which may also be caused by a complete restart of BG2everytime I install a promising feature, so I have to CLUA a lot to get somewhere at all).

 

PS: Don't forget to kill Nym next time you see him. He is always trouble.

[Domi]

However, it is rather peripheral to your characters, so I never really got involved. Too... impersonal. It more or less develops in the background whilst you are mostly hacking through yet another batch of Orcs.

 

I have to say that the chapter introductions and Oswald as a link to the story really created an atmosphere for me. I also find that hordes to fight gives the campaign a realistic feel of being in the thick of the crisis and being night overwhelmed all the time. I like the impression it creates, the savagery of IWD2. That's said, yes, the game would have won from some areas being cut and having more interesting solutions (*cough* Andorra *cough*). On another hand, Targos, Ice Temple, the Wandering Village, Fell Wood and Black Raven Monastery are superb settings, imo.

 

The gameworld also feels more artificial than in BG. You linearly progress through every single area in the game, and each one is filled with challenges for you to overcome. You never feel like you're really trekking through the wilderness, like in BG..

 

I have to say that Fell Wood experience feels to me more like trekking through the wilderness, than methodical walking in the concentric circle on BG1 screens looking for the encounters. It was cleverly made, cleverly and deviously.

 

I feel like I've been progressing through a shooting gallery.

 

I always assigned this feeling to the game being simply too challenging. To be honest, I enjoy it much more on the easiest setting

 

BG2 wins out on immersion, characters and gameplay, but the plot in many way is the weakest link.

 

I dunno, I always had troubles with immersion in BG2. I did not want to go to Spellhold, missed Kivan, Anomen's romance felt forced, in other words, I kept being reminded that I am doing things 'cause the game wants me to.... No less than in IWD2, I suppose. As for characters, I keep running into those absolutely neat chars in IWD2, like Priest of Myrkul in Targos, and they remind me the best of BG1 side-chars. Or the whole Ice Temple set up. (Sigh). As I said, I am in love. Hope it lasts!

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Fellwood was very good at creating the atmosphere of a haunted wood, but it didn't feel like exploring wilderness to me. Especially seeing all these identical areas felt jarring, otherwordly. Which is what the game intended, of course.

 

I agree the chapter introductions are nice, and add to the atmosphere. But again, they are rather impersonal because of the way the story is set up.

 

And yeah, BG2 too had a few immersion problems. My game of choice will remain Torment, but we've had that discussion already.

[Domi]

As I said, PST at least has its devoted fans While poor, poor IWD2....

[Avenger]

Just look at later parts though, IWD2 starts excellently written, but the (scripting/story) quality decreases significantly in later chapters. It seems like a hurried product (as it was).

The music and artwork are excellent all over, though.

 

The IWD2 spells are significantly better written than HoW/IWD. As they discovered IDS targeting. HoW contains lots of hardcoded crap which is implemented in IWD2 much better (apply effect block based on stats). Still, some stuff is better in BG2.

[Domi]

(Sigh) I will need to make a few items/spells pretty soon, and I am already dread the hard-coded anything. Seeing how I never really did anything non-trivial in BG2 for spells/items either.... I hope so much it's not going to be overly complicated

[SimDing0]

I have to say that Fell Wood experience feels to me more like trekking through the wilderness, than methodical walking in the concentric circle on BG1 screens looking for the encounters. It was cleverly made, cleverly and deviously.

I very much disagree here. Fell Wood had a huge feeling of "okay guys, we've got to put some puzzles in here somewhere!" for me. If it was a complex network of unique maps, it would be more enjoyable, but as it is, it just feels like a re-run of the Modron Cube (or WK portal maze, but that actually had more than 3 eternally-respawning skeletons in).

[Domi]

heh, to me it felt just like real loosing yourself in the woods, everything looks the same, and that guy with the topomap (Wilderness Lore in IWD2) needs life-insurance if he dares to open it up again

[jester]

I got lost twice and then called it quits and asked the gamefaqers. I agree with Sim that its replay value was limited. Perhaps even to -1 runs through the game. They could at least have used 25 randomized maps to really make you feel lost.

[Domi]

I think there are actually 30 - don't quote me on this, but I remember that the number was steep when I was doing the area inventory I think that the idea that Wilderness Lore information is what makes the areas different was pretty neat. Anyway, maybe I was just happy that it was a maze in the forest as opposite to a standard maze in a dungeon....

[jester]

I think there are actually 30 - don't quote me on this, but I remember that the number was steep when I was doing the area inventory I think that the idea that Wilderness Lore information is what makes the areas different was pretty neat. Anyway, maybe I was just happy that it was a maze in the forest as opposite to a standard maze in a dungeon....

 

 

MMmmh, so you are saying that they each look different when I take a decent ranger? I seem to have to go there once again after all.

 

I had the variations of the Maze in PST in mind and I think they can count as quite a few: http://www.blackwyrmlair.net/~chevar/Commu.../pst_dmaps.html