Introducing Gavin

[Lemernis]

As for the idea of dualing at Fighter level 1, while it works fine for BG1 I'm not sure how well it will sit with most players for BG2. Myself I'd have no problem with it, though.

 

(For a BG1 Tutu cleric NPC, the type of character that I personally would like to see is a pure cleric who uses a specialty cleric kit, and has some new custom spells and special abilities related to his faith (in this case for a Morninglord). Ditto if the NPC is developed for SoA/ToB as well.)

[berelinde]

Yeah, it would be a pity to lose out on that kit.

[DavidW]

Just a thought. I often see debates regarding the pnp merits of a new NPC, without any consideration for the typically non-pnp enemies. Enemies use incorrect natural AC values (usually too high), THAC0 (usually too high), saving throws (usually too high), incorrect equipment for their class/race (usually more powerful), force casting, bypassing of spell memorization, non-interruption, and so on, yet you are trying to make a 'fair and balanced' NPC. Thus you are on an uphill path.

 

For what it's worth, SCS doesn't really do this: it's fairly scrupulous about not force-casting and while it doesn't make any particular attempt to fix vanilla BG1's too-good ACs and THAC0s, it doesn't introduce any of its own.

 

It's true that in PnP, you'd still be annihilated by SCS opponents: they outnumber you and they're usually higher level. But that's an unavoidable part of a CRPG: SCS's AI may be quite smart compared to vanilla BG1, but it's still very, very stupid compared to homo sapiens...

[berelinde]

It's true that in PnP, you'd still be annihilated by SCS opponents: they outnumber you and they're usually higher level. But that's an unavoidable part of a CRPG: SCS's AI may be quite smart compared to vanilla BG1, but it's still very, very stupid compared to homo sapiens...

 

SCS might be stupid compared to homo sapiens. I would not argue that. But it is much faster.

 

The DM of my PnP campaign is a good deal brighter than I am. He comes up with stuff that leaves me scrathcing my had saying "Duh... now what?" This is offset by the fact that there are 4-7 other players, depending on the night, all sitting around plotting against him. And your round takes as long as it needs to take, within reason. He's also good about allowing pre-battle pow-wows.

 

Maybe including the "pause at the end of the round" would help that in a CRPG, but I find it disruptive.

 

But back to the original point of the test run: I don't want Gavin to be a liability if SCS is installed. Too many people like it, me being one of them, to assume that it won't be installed.

 

It might be that he's fine with it, even with a 16 strength, as part of a party with some heavy hitters to handle more of the hack-and-slash. I think I'll run the next trial with a paladin with a high strength (18/70 or better, even) and a decent dex (15?), Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Gavin the NPC (with the 16 strength) to get through the mines and pick up Xan (with a shortbow proficiency, perhaps, courtesy of AoE) for some spell and ranged support, and see how it goes. That sounds like a party that could handle even SCS with minimal reloading.

[Gorilym]

While SCS has indeed rapidly become one of the 'standard' mods for Tutu, assuming that SCS is installed is hardly better than assuming it isn't installed. (Unless you plan on "an add-on for SCS" being Gavin's tagline? ) If Gavin's "power level" is more or less equivalent with that of Branwen, Yeslick, Viconia & Finch, (and as a kitted cleric with the prospected stats, it should be) he'll be fine - even in a game with SCS installed.

[Smoketest]

The only tactics-type mod I'll ever run in my games is the one I write myself. Thus a character like Gavin would have a chance, provided he uses all of his abilities.

 

SSI's Pool of Radiance did pnp right, especially in combat, so I don't agree with people who use the CRPG excuse.

[berelinde]

Yes, I am beginning to think leaving Gavin alone as a kitted cleric with a 16 strength is fine.

 

I think the problems I had can be traced to 4 things in an unfortunate combination:

1- Using a character with NPC stats as a PC

2- Not recruiting any of the heavy-hitting fighter NPCs, e.g. Minsc

3- Not having an arcane spellcaster at all in the Nashkel mines

4- Not taking 1, 2 and 3 into consideration when starting a game with SCS

 

In the party I was thinking of for the second SCS run, he'd do fine. In a game without SCS, he'd do fine, even in the original, sub-optimal party. That sounds about right.

[cmorgan]

I know I may be in a minority here, but I do tend to play "superhuman" PCs, and pick up NPCs for their content and prsonality, not their ability to stay alive in combat. My favorite discussions on forums lately have been Lemernis' "wild mage" party, which basically couldn't make it through TGCep1 battles; it might be frustrating and eventually lead to some nerfing, but wow, what a wicked cool challenge!

 

Finch and Keto are not particularly battle-worthy folks, but I know many people wll take them along because the writing is fun, interesting, and different. That leads me to believe that unless you drop Gavin's intelligence to 3 and his charisma to 0, and make him swear disgustingly like Willy Bruce (a fun dude ), "if you build it they will come" .

[Smoketest]

Berelinde, I think that's why some walkthroughs (Dudleyville for one), and I myself, prefer to rescue Dynaheir before visiting the Nashkel mines. It's always nice having a mage in the party, and she comes with Minsc. (Or vice-versa.) Of course, with SCS rescuing Dynaheir might be a lot tougher; I wouldn't know as I will never use that mod. (Echon's FotD mod is closer to what I prefer, but it's not for Tutu.)

[berelinde]

Hmmm. Good point, Smoketest. And having Minsc and Dynaheir would probably be more useful than having J&K (no offense!), especially if PC is also a fighter-type. If PC were a mage or mage multi-class, though, I might be tempted to leave M&D for later and still get J&K. But what the heck. I like Minsc.

[Lemernis]

I would think your BG1 Tutu yardstick here should be Branwen. She's a pure cleric, and she performs just fine.

 

Branwen

Str 13

Dex 16

Con 15

Int 9

Wis 16

Cha 13

 

Gavin

Str 16 or 17

Dex 11

Con 16

Int 10

Wis 17

Cha 12

 

Branwen would do as well as Gavin in (in either a vanilla or SCS game). And players certainly won't avoid choosing Branwen as cleric for a non-evil-aligned party. Lots of players prefer to use her instead of Jaheria.

 

***

 

Can a Morninglord kit cleric dual class to Fighter? Because that option might be attractive to players.

 

if Gavin comes with a few cool custom Lathanderite spells and special abilities, players should be able to figure out how to use him well as a Morninglord. But if they just want someone who can provide some decent healing, perhaps they might load his spell slots with a few key buffs, the rest mostly healing spells, and dual him to Fighter so he can do some serious meleeing.

 

I suppose that's potentially problematic for the banters though, as Six has pointed out. Unless you have a set of modifed or added banters that only fire if Gavin is dualed to Fighter... (As a non-coder I haven't a clue if that's even doable; or if it is, how difficult it would be.)

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, pure clerics are extremely powerful against undead in BG2. Even in BG1 they are (I've used Finch in a SCS game to explode skeleton warrriors). That's nothing to sneeze at. And imvho a Morninglord should arguably receive a bonus of some kind vs. all undead (not sure if that's kosher with PnP, but Lathander is strongly opposed to undead).

 

Anyway, if you ever develop Gavin as a BG2 character (which I hope you will), as a Morninglord he'd be especially strong vs. liches and some of the other tougher undead monsters in the game.

[Gorilym]

The comparisons with Branwen are apt, and they illustrate that Gavin will not be lacking in the power department as a single-class cleric. Unlike her, he'll be able to use any armor and shield in the game right off the bat, which makes up for having a slightly higher base AC. Plus he'll have more HP and a few more bonus spells. The standard Morninglord kit has some useful abilities, and the DR remix of it looks even better.

 

With a strength of 16 dual-classing will be impractical, (tome not available until Ch. 6, which means that he might not even regain his cleric abilities before the end-game) so I don't think writing banters for that eventuality should be a big concern - as precedent, it's not like Yoshimo has different dialogue if you dual him to fighter, and he's eligible for an instant dual.

 

edit: hey, my post no. 300.

[cmorgan]

I suppose that's potentially problematic for the banters though, as Six has pointed out. Unless you have a set of modifed or added banters that only fire if Gavin is dualed to Fighter... (As a non-coder I haven't a clue if that's even doable; or if it is, how difficult it would be.)

Relatively easy from coding standpoint:

IF

Class("gavin",FIGHTER_ALL)

in the BAF, and

== ~B!BGAVIN~ IF ~Class("gavin",CLERIC_ALL)~ ~response if cleric~

== ~B!BGAVIN~ IF ~Class("gavin",FIGHTER_ALL)~ ~response if fighter~

in the CHAIN/D;

 

it isn't the coding, it is the writing of the banter that is actually the difficult part

 

 

Anyway, if you ever develop Gavin as a BG2 character (which I hope you will), as a Morninglord he'd be especially strong vs. liches and some of the other tougher undead monsters in the game.

Definitely, please consider this... Domi's Kivan is a good target to aim for on any NPC created now. The work is tremendous, but the ability to replace a "canon" character for a full run Tutu>BG2>ToB is a solid way of enhancing the game!

[berelinde]

Thanks for the input.

 

You have some great ideas for kit tweaks, but I am not ambitious enough to do that. Everyone has a talent, and none of mine include making changes to kits or scripts. If people want to go ahead and add DR, or AoE or anything else that changes or improves kits, I'd like to leave that to their discretion.

 

I'm hoping to stick with Gavin throughout the cycle. I hope Gavin is likable and useful, and plan to write more, but one thing at a time.

 

I think he's comparable to Branwen. He doesn't get her dex bonus, but the weight and armor allowances make up for that.