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Commentary on alignment changes: LG

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...but let's start small, with just the changes to lawful good.


Filename, in-game name, original alignment

  • arval.cre = High Mornmaster Arval - Lawful Evil
    bharval.cre = High Mornmaster Arval (Temple of Lathlander)- Lawful Evil
    c6bran.cre = Branet Al-Thon (Paladins of the Radiant Heart vs Bohdi) - Lawful Neutral
    c6eric.cre = Eric Vanstraaten (Paladins of the Radiant Heart vs Bohdi)- Lawful Neutral
    c6eric3.cre = Eric Vanstraaten (Paladins of the Radiant Heart vs Bohdi)- Lawful Neutral
    c6kalden.cre = Kalden - Lawful Neutral (unused, but classed as paladin)
    c6levin.cre = Levin Rayn - Lawful Neutral (unused, but classed as paladin)
    c6nerit.cre = Nerit (Paladins of the Radiant Heart vs Bohdi) - Lawful Neutral
    c6squire.cre = Squire Cathras (Radiant Heart, assistant to Prelate Wesselan)- Lawful Neutral
    c6will.cre = William Reirrac (Paladins of the Radiant Heart vs Bohdi) - Lawful Neutral
    chgood04.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral
    chgood05.cre = Elven Warrior (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral
    chgood07.cre = Duke Eltan (1st Pocket Plane Challenge for evil <CHARNAME>) - Lawful Neutral
    cutbalth.cre = Balthazar (kidnaps Melissan in a cutscene)- Lawful Neutral
    derrick.cre = Derrick - (unused, but a ranger) Lawful Neutral
    elotte.cre = Squire Elotte (Radiant Heartist involved in Ranger Cabin Plot) - Lawful Neutral
    garkid01.cre = Iltha (Garren Windspear's daughter) - Neutral
    garkid02.cre = Taar (Garren Windspear's son) - Neutral
    garren.cre = Garren Windspear (He lives in the Windspear Hills :) ) - NONE
    hdragsil.cre = Dragon (Tear guardian in a hell trial) - Chaotic Evil
    jarev1.cre = Harper (Part of Reviane's Harper posse) - Chaotic Evil
    pwauk2.cre = Haletlatess Jillian (halfling woman in temple district, priestess of Cyrrollalee, a LG halfling deity) - Neutral
    sarmag01.cre = Errard (mage on walls in Saradush, involved in the Mateo desertion quest) - Lawful Evil
    suelle.cre = Ellesime (tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral
    suelle2.cre = Ellesime (post SoA finale Ellesime) - Neutral
    suelleap.cre = Ellesime (another tree of life Ellesime) - Neutral
    uhogre01.cre = Madulf (pacifist Ogre in the Umar Hills) - Neutral

As far as I know, arval.cre, c6kalden.cre, c6levin.cre, and derrick.cre are unused, so don't worry too much about those.




I thought for sure that a different creature was used for Derrick, but it looks like I just scrambled the regular expression. If so, derrick.cre is a masterpiece of slovenly, a lawful neutral ranger without spellcasting or racial enemy, female in the sex and gender fields but male avatar, soundset consisting of three lines from Neeber, weird palette colors, no weapon proficiencies, weapon equipped but unused, a non-existent dialogue assigned....


//edit some more


Was right the first time, derrick.cre is unused, valrang1-3 are the right creatures. Thank goodness I'm stupid, I didn't want to write a patch for the rest of the nonsense.


Cam edit: Also check the alignment overview thread.

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I might argue that Madulf actually is neutral, or maybe neutral good. He is a deserter, which doesn't really suggest entirely lawful behavior. But he doesn't back out of an agreement, either, so he isn't blatantly chaotic.


Just my 2 pence.

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He has a principle and he sticks to it, that is usually lawful good behaviour. Lawful neutral is the alignment of someone who follows the law of the land; in this case deserting an army is the action of someone who follows a "higher" code. I certainly don't think he is chaotic.


I'm not sure of the arguments for a true neutral as a pacifist, but I don't see it myself. By my understanding a TN is supposed to support balance, pacifism is not the same IMO. TN's shouldn't really give a damn about agreements either. I'm not sure there is enough justification for a change here though.

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I think it far more likely Ellesime's alignment indicates that she is actually a pirate, and any change we make should reflect this.


Core subcomponent # 2178: Queen Ellesime uses a pirate avatar and says "Avast" a lot added for Beta 4. Sound files will be replaced with some stuff I recorded on my cell phone while sleeping through Pirates of the Caribbean.


Erm, about the alignments...I'd personally unroll:


c6squire - this is the flunky you talk to when requesting aid from the Radiant Heart versus Bohdi in Chapter Six. Lawful Neutral fighters are allowed in the Radiant Heart...don't see a need to change.


cutbalth - doesn't really matter (as you can't cast Detect Alignment during a cutscene) but Balthazar is only Lawful Good if Ascension is installed.


elotte - another Lawful Neutral fighter from the Radiant Heart, she's specifically a Helmite from her dialogue.


Really couldn't say what the best solution for jarev1 is, Reviane's other Harper friends are Neutral and Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil, but Reviane herself is Neutral Good. Neutral would be my first choice though.


I always thought Duke Eltan was a typo for Elhan anyway :)

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Because alignments of NPCs tend to be subjective outside of Bioware's offices, I only care about the alignments of enemies and potential enemies (within reason), since those alignments directly effect how certain spells and items function against those creatures.

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Because alignments of NPCs tend to be subjective outside of Bioware's offices, I only care about the alignments of enemies and potential enemies (within reason), since those alignments directly effect how certain spells and items function against those creatures.
I see your point, but ideally I would still have it cover all NPCs that you can use detect evil / know alignment spells on... Determining which NPCs constitute potential enemies can be difficult in any case.
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I've added a bit more info to Nythrun's original post--mainly that Kalden and Levin are unused, but flagged as paladins. Cyrrollalee is a LG halfling deity. Rillifane is a CG elven deity.


Personally, I think it's important that Detect Evil and Know Alignment return meaningful results on all creatures (like quest-givers), not just potential foes. That being said, from a game standpoint getting evil v good correct is much more important than the lawful v chaotic. Many spells and items have different effects for good/evil, whereas I can only think of one (Equalizer) that cares about the lawful-chaotic axis.


I'd go with Nythrun, except that I would also go for the copies of Arval being NG instead (Lathander is NG after all). Madulf and the harper (jarev1) are ambiguous--if pressed I'd say NG is probably a good fit for Madulf, but I'm not so sure about LG for jarev1--possibly CN.

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I'd still maintain that Madulf is LG but I won't argue with NG, with certain exceptions (eg paladins) these alignments usually "close enough" to not worry about.


Harpers are just a pain, pick anything for jarev1 except evil, LN and, unless he is a druid, TN and it could an argument could be made for it.


Why is Errard (the Flaming Fist) LG? I would say LN is a better alignment for your standard FF, but I forget who he is.

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Flaming Fist was an obscure and not-too-funny joke based on Errard's animation :)


There was an active thread on the Bioware Official forum not too long ago by someone who was wondering what bug had changed <CHARNAME>'s alignment to neutral evil. As it turns out, deciding to smite the Chaotic Evil dragon you meet when you're wandering around Hell is one of the few actually evil things you can do in BG2, unlike, say, stabbing orphans. This is all wrong - smiting evil comes with the job description if you're a cavalier. While I don't care overmuch if the hdragsil Silver dragon is chaotic good or lawful good, chaotic evil is very misleading for the reasons CamDawg has already listed. Meaningless results from Detect Alignment are just as much of a bug as Swashbucklers not getting their THAC0 bonus: it's a .spl file not living up to description :)

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I sort of inferred things like Detect Evil in my "potential enemies" comment. That is, I'd prefer to see 'realistic' results for my time spent checking alignments, even if only from curiosity. The IE is a long ways from making Faerun as detailed and 'living' as, say, an Ultima world, so every little bit helps. (Imagine having a business baking mumbleberry pie in the bridge district. hah.)


These days I only use Detect Evil if I'm a paladin checking to see if Hurgis is real or fake. It's hard not to metagame when I've got 99.9% of the game memorized. Mods help, but only the first time I play them.

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Guest Felinoid

c6squire - Is he a paladin? A ranger? If not, leave the guy alone.


chgood04 & 05 - Not all elves are good. Though I have to admit I find it hard to oppose this one when "good" is right in the CRE name. :)


cutbalth - You're kidding me, right? This is the man who lets people in Amkethran suffer for his little crusade, who sent a monk to attack a good priest for what I remember as a piddling little reason, and then sends another to warn you off when you defend the guy! There is no way Balthazar is good.


elotte - Covered by others, but I'll lend my voice as well.


garkid01 & 02 - Yes, everyone knows that children are born with the same exact disposition as their father...


jarev1 - Certainly not CE, but LG for a harper is kind of pushing it IMO. Maybe NG?


sarmag01 - Perhaps a spell cast by the guy who sends you to kill him? I wouldn't put it past Kiser to try to trick a paladin's Detect Evil spell like that. Still, probably deserves a fix (in the case of Holy Smite and such), and I can't think of an alignment that fits him better than LG.


uhogre01 - A good ogre. Ignoring the Drizzt-ishness for the moment, what does he do that's so compassionate? Not kill random people? Agree to protect the village in return for not having waves of adventurers trying to kill him just for being an ogre? Yeah, I can't imagine why a neutral would do those things either... :)

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