bug related to 'Exploit to Keep Imported Items'

[devSin]

I don't dispute that it can be viewed differently, and you're right that we can't say for sure that they didn't want to have Restoration affect the level of the simulacrum.

 

However complex, the game is riddled with features and behaviors that were the result of the developers using what they had available at the time, even if the implementation didn't turn out to really work that well. I personally believe that Simulacrum works the way it does because it was the easiest way to implement it, and none of the designers ever even considered the player casting Restoration to reverse the level penalty of the simulacrum; maybe Cam will eventually ask, but I don't believe at all that the response would be anything other than "bug."

[SimDing0]

The developers could have intended Korgan to be a clown.

 

Sensible analysis of likely intent goes a long way over "well, they COULD have intended XYZ so please delete the fixpack".

[Ardanis]

Speaking about cutscene, I'd fully support SimDing's opinion. This exploit can't be used unintentionally.

[CamDawg]

As I said above, I'm more than willing to roll it back--it's not much of a fix if we're introducing new pain, is it?

[Guest Guest]

none of the designers ever even considered the player casting Restoration to reverse the level penalty of the simulacrum

 

But then again, there are lot of things the designers never considered the player would do. For example, can you imagine with a pure Thief having a pet familiar no matter how silly that sounds? But it happens, once you get 'Use Any Item'. And with UAI, you open a whole new can of worms. Some of them are borderline exploits. I'm sure you'll agree the designers never considered the players would do something that far fetched.

 

 

Sensible analysis of likely intent goes a long way over "well, they COULD have intended XYZ so please delete the fixpack".

 

The same could be said the other way around.

 

"This weapon/spell is supposed to XYZ. But wait a second. It also happens to do ABC even though it's description makes no mention of it. So it MUST be a bug. Lets fix it and put an end to it!!!"

[Nythrun]

Really not sanguine towards either including or excluding anything without a reason.

[Anomaly]

As I said above, I'm more than willing to roll it back--it's not much of a fix if we're introducing new pain, is it?

Overall, I really like the BG2 FixPack and I recommend it to all French players.

 

But this fix is the bad side of the mod, because of the many compatibility problems this introduce with the excellent BGT-WeiDU (other mods are affected : CTB-WeiDU and ROT-WeiDU), with the unfamous purple-circled PC bug. Someone has even reported getting the purple-circled PC bug while loading a save in AR0602. Difficult to say that this fix, or a compatibility problem with it, was responsible for this bug, but this buggered me a lot.

 

So I would not miss it if it were removed. But if you remove it now, how will react BGT-WeiDU which now detects BG2 FixPack ?

[Guest Guest]

Really not sanguine towards either including or excluding anything without a reason.

 

umm.. All the reasons - for and against - have already been mentioned. Please try following the thread.

 

A few people have already said at least one of these "fixes" (keeping imported items) should be excluded, or at the very least removed from Core fixes.

 

As for 'simulacrum restoration', I have argued it is as much a non-bug as it is a bug. If, after reading my posts, you still feel it is a bug, then let me give you two more examples.

 

You get xp when you write or scribe a scroll into your spellbook. Let's say you delete it from your spellbook for no reason. Then you write the same scroll into your spellbook again. You get XP again. Then you decide to delete it. Then you write it again and get XP again. And so on. Some people would consider this an exploit because you're quickly gaining XP for doing practically nothing. Should this be "fixed" too?

 

Or how about a thief, after drinking a Potion of Master thievery, steals and sells the same item repeatedly to the same storekeeper (even though it makes ZERO sense)? Again, some would consider this an exploit because it is theoretically possible to make an infinite amount of money. Should this be "fixed" too?

 

If you believe the simulacrum restoration is a bug, then you have to agree these two examples (and the other ones I mentioned earlier) are also bugs and should be "fixed" appropriately.

[Nythrun]

Please try following the thread.

 

It's just way over my little blonde head.

 

You've said that it causes a spell memorization bug, which it does not, and you've said it shouldn't be fixed, several times. "It shouldn't be fixed" is not a reason it shouldn't be fixed; sorry, existance in esse is an incoherant concept if existance is not a predicate. If a fix causes compatibilty issues or can't be cleanly implemented technically, that would suffice - but you're not mentioning any. There're also mods which will allow you keep imported items; using one of those would certainly be preferable to proscribing all fixes and the official patch.

 

If, after reading my posts, you still feel it is a bug, then let me give you two more examples.

 

If you want to discuss simulacra, it would be better to discuss simulacra and not drag in unrelated matters.

 

Some people would consider this an exploit because you're quickly gaining XP for doing practically nothing. Should this be "fixed" too?

 

No. Enjoy your tedious clicking as you consume all of the game's limited supply of scrolls in order to reach an experience cap you were going to hit anyway.

 

Again, some would consider this an exploit because it is theoretically possible to make an infinite amount of money. Should this be "fixed" too?

 

No. As an aside, a finite series of finite elements converges to a finite value, not infinity.

[Guest Guest]

It shouldn't be fixed because it is not a bug in the first place.

 

 

"There're also mods which will allow you keep imported items"

 

So now I have to look for other mods if I disagree with certain things the way the Fixpack has implemented. Is this what you say to those that disagree with some of fixpack's changes - "Go look for other mods."? I thought "feedback was strongly encouraged"? Or is feedback only encouraged when you agree 100% with everything the fixpack authors do?

 

 

"If a fix causes compatibilty issues or can't be cleanly implemented technically, that would suffice - but you're not mentioning any."

 

Here is a screenshot for the bug related to 'keeping exporting items'. As I said, it shoudn't be fixed if it's not a bug.

 

 

"If you want to discuss simulacra, it would be better to discuss simulacra and not drag in unrelated matters."

 

Actually, the main reason why I continue bringing up the other examples is because I'm trying to show the hypocrisy in deciding what can be considered bugs/exploits and what can not. It is as if the Fixpack authors like to pick and choose what they consider "bugs".

 

 

"No. Enjoy your tedious clicking as you consume all of the game's limited supply of scrolls in order to reach an experience cap you were going to hit anyway."

 

lol, clearly you are being hypocritical here since you seem to like to have some exploits not fixed on purpose. What you just said applies to YOU since you're the one that doesn't want it fixed.

 

 

"No. As an aside, a finite series of finite elements converges to a finite value, not infinity."

 

Again - hyprocrisy at its best. And since you don't have anything else to say besides "No", you resort to playing semantics? Why am I not surprised?

[Nythrun]

If you want cheats and exploits, then yes, you do have to look for a different mod. Receptive to feedback doesn't mean acceed to any poorly reasoned demand.

 

Cam's already mentioned that excess spell slots are totally unrelated to the Fixpack's changes. I'll mention it again - opcode 0x2a doesn't dynamically update the memorized spell list in .cre files.

 

You keep using this word "hypocrisy". I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Guest Guest]

If you want cheats and exploits, then yes, you do have to look for a different mod. Receptive to feedback doesn't mean acceed to any poorly reasoned demand.

 

Cam's already mentioned that excess spell slots are totally unrelated to the Fixpack's changes. I'll mention it again - opcode 0x2a doesn't dynamically update the memorized spell list in .cre files.

 

You keep using this word "hypocrisy". I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

LOL, you just don't get it, do you?

 

If you were truely objective and fair-minded, then you should've said, "YES, those two cases are also bugs/exploits. They need to be fixed to." But instead what did you say? You blatanly said "no" without giving any good justification.

 

If I was looking for a mod that allows cheats and exploits, then its obvious that I don't have to look far.

[berelinde]

No one mandates a fixpack. Well, some people do, but that's up to the individual modder, now, isn't it?

 

Anyway, there is an easy way to avoid installing fixes you don't like: comment them out. The BG2 Fixpack is well-indexed, so they shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

Please don't answer the question that follows this. Being well-versed in the lexicon of logic, as I am sure you are, you will readily identify it as a rhetorical question. In what way can accusations of hypocrisy be considered as anything other than a personal attack, and what bearing would that have on a discussion about the contents of a fixpack?

[Guest Guest]

No one mandates a fixpack. Well, some people do, but that's up to the individual modder, now, isn't it?

 

Anyway, there is an easy way to avoid installing fixes you don't like: comment them out. The BG2 Fixpack is well-indexed, so they shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

Please don't answer the question that follows this. Being well-versed in the lexicon of logic, as I am sure you are, you will readily identify it as a rhetorical question. In what way can accusations of hypocrisy be considered as anything other than a personal attack, and what bearing would that have on a discussion about the contents of a fixpack?

 

Berelinde,

 

Don't get me wrong. I like using the Fixpack. I respect and admire the amount of work that's been put in it over the years, and I actually agree with about 99.9 % of the fixes and decisiions made. Clearly, no sane person(s) would continue to faithfully support the game after all these years for virtually no money.

 

It's just that when there is one or two things that I disagree with, I feel I should ask what was the intent behind making these changes.

 

Maybe I misread her initial reply as being confrontational. If so, then I apologize.

[CamDawg]

Have we ever claimed that subjective decisions--and yes, I'll use the dreaded s-word here--are not required? It's not possible to get developer feedback on every issue. Feedback, documentation, transparency, and the sheer number of bodies are all meant to minimize subjectivity. It'd be hypocritical to claim otherwise, which is why we never have. It's why I prefer to defend Fixpack by explaining its processes instead of, say, pointing out shortcomings of other bugfixing efforts or reciprocating attacks.

 

Did the devs intend for clever players to cast restoration on simulcrum and boost its abilities? This is certainly a possibility. But is it more or less likely it's simply a loophole they never considered? Every fix, no matter how simple and obvious it appears, can always be argued from a "but you don't know that for sure" PoV, which is why I find it particularly noncompelling. All we can use are whatever facts we can dredge up from the game and determine what the devs intended to the best of our knowledge.

 

The lack of support you're receiving should be indicative that you're either not presenting a very good case and/or people are not convinced. Neither of these scenarios mean that your arguments are being ignored, and I invite you to try again. Where convincing arguments have been presented, things have changed.

 

ere is a screenshot for the bug related to 'keeping exporting items'. As I said, it shoudn't be fixed if it's not a bug.

I've never doubted the issue exists. However, it occurs with or without the Fixpack--ergo, closing the exploit is not causing this, which was my original point.

 

If you were truely objective and fair-minded, then you should've said, "YES, those two cases are also bugs/exploits. They need to be fixed to." But instead what did you say? You blatanly said "no" without giving any good justification.

Yes, those two cases are also bugs/exploits. They need to be fixed too. As they can not be fixed without introducing issues worse than the original ones, they won't be. I'd close every exploit in the game if it were possible, but the hardcoded nature of most of them and/or the hacky fixes required make this an impossibility. That we can't attain 100% doesn't mean we won't settle for a lesser amount.