Aerie, the PC, and tiefling love

[Kish]

Just Dommi seems like a priest who wants to preach all day and nobody was even attacking her or not being polite I think. She/he has a problem maybe. I'm glad Dommi is not the mod author.

I feel obligated to put a word in here. You would, I think, have a hard time finding anyone who enjoys reading murder fantasies about a character s/he likes. For example, I imagine Kania Blade would be rather distressed if I were to quote a few posts on the alt.games.baldurs-gate newsgroup a few days ago (about Haer'Dalis). Your post makes it sound like the murder fantasies are somehow on-topic here whereas positive opinions of Aerie or even the observation that Haer'Dalis should realistically react quite badly if the PC kills Aerie in front of him are not.

[Penara]

feel obligated to put a word in here. You would, I think, have a hard time finding anyone who enjoys reading murder fantasies about a character s/he likes. For example, I imagine Kania Blade would be rather distressed if I were to quote a few posts on the alt.games.baldurs-gate newsgroup a few days ago (about Haer'Dalis). Your post makes it sound like the murder fantasies are somehow on-topic here whereas positive opinions of Aerie or even the observation that Haer'Dalis should realistically react quite badly if the PC kills Aerie in front of him are not.

 

Thanx for your words Kish but no I am not and have neverbeen botherd by posts from people who say such things about chars I like. LOts of forums have char bashes sometimes and I'm never bothered because the writers don't personally attack the writer of theposts. It looked to me like Dommi did and it sort of creeped me out but like I said, thanx anyway. Also I sort of know Kania Blade andeven she's said that others don't really matter for her Dalis. All I want is a good HD mod and wish we could know if it is even close tobeing done or not. I really hope so as he is one of my faves.

[Domi]

And I thought that chosing a simple alias would help people not to misspell it....

 

If you believe that my posts constitute a personal attack, feel free to report them to Cam.

[Theodur]

Domi, maybe you should make a list about which characters are allowed to be bashed. Otherwise it seems a bit hypocritical of you to come down so hard on others, when you've been doing the same for I don't know how many years. So, I'm guessing... Anomen, Imoen, Jaheira, Viconia, Korgan, Sarevok, Edwin should be bashed... did I miss anyone?

[Domi]

You want an official Domi's Bashing List?

 

Very well. Here it is:

 

- none

[Theodur]

Ah, I get it. But you've got a long unofficial list, don't you?

 

...

 

Anyway, to remain on-topic, on the subject of H'D-Aerie romance in the game. It certainly was pretty interesting... the way I see it, initially H'D is simply intrigued by her virginity (he's the type of guy who likes to go after virgins, other women probably interest him lot less, used goods and all that rot). So he does the usual guy tricks to win her over, you know, like the ones you try on your local ditzy blondes. Telling her how pure, talented, beautiful and wise she is (when she's quite clearly not), until she finally falls for the ruse. Happens pretty quickly with Aerie, because she's very vain and needy.

 

So the ToB resolution I see like this... the guy has got what he wanted, so he doesn't really bother anymore to tell what she wants to hear, hence we hear Haer sprouting his Doomguard philosophy and such. Obviously, Aerie is Righteously Outraged, being the pristine little LG that she is... and eventually tells him to bugger off. The funniest thing is that Haer doesn't appear to be in the least disappointed by all that. I can sort of see him shrugging and thinking 'oh well, I was sort of getting tired of you anyway'. She seems to be far too shallow to keep his interest for too long, really.

[Kulyok]

So the ToB resolution I see like this... the guy has got what he wanted, so he doesn't really bother anymore to tell what she wants to hear, hence we hear Haer sprouting his Doomguard philosophy and such.

 

(snicker) Yes, I think as much sometimes. It seems like he gives her a gentle warning first "I do not chide you for your beliefs" and then speaks openly. Not that she should complain about him "using her", mind: I personally think the guy must have been a terror in bed.

 

zan actually gave a great version of Haer'Dalis' account of their relationship (I really miss zan at the Attic, really, even if I wasn't there back then) :

http://www.gamejag.net/index.php?name=PNph...ewtopic&t=69706

 

According to zan, both of them needed praise. "The actor has been spoilt, and is more used to those who would laud him than those who would compete..."

[Kish]

From the Aerie/Haer'Dalis romance (stop reading if you want to avoid spoilers):

 

Ah, my dove...I see you have finished perusing my latest play. Would you care to act out a scene or two?

Actually, Haer'dalis...I have a question. All your plays...they seem to end in tragedy or destruction. They are all so...so dark. Have you no happy plays?

Ahh, my sweet Aerie. I write my plays as befits the creed of the Doomguard. All things end in destruction and tragedy...to think otherwise would be foolish.

Foolish? You...you can't honestly think that. Is there no room for hope in your world?

Even hope is eroded, my dove. All things break down, over time...all things come to an end. 'Tis the natural order of the multiverse. Who am I to question this?

But...but you can't embrace destruction...you have to fight against it, don't you?

On the contrary, one must assist the multiverse in attaining its goal. One day, all things will cease to exist...this is the way it shall be. The Doomguard stands to assist this goal.

But why would you...why would you even build a home or...or fall in love...if you thought that way? If all things decay, why start anything?

(sigh) Often the act of creation is one of entropy, itself. The earth is mined and chipped away for the metals that men use to create, is it not? And love is but a brief and pleasant flutter.

A brief and...? No...no! Love should be enduring! It embodies hope and strength...are you saying that you expect it to end?

Of course I do. Ah, but I see I have upset you, my dove. Let me reassure you that the multiverse shall not end in my lifetime...at least I do not expect it to.

And while I know that our love must end, I do not expect it to do so soon. The Fates will decide, and until then I shall love you truly and with all the heat I can muster.

I know my Doomguard thinking may be strange to you, sweet Aerie, but it need not intrude on your happiness. If it pleases you, I'll not mention it again.

No...no, I...I just want to know that you'll love me...and that you'll be there for me...that is all.

But I do love you. And I am here for you. As for the future, I cannot say.

I...I guess that'll have to be enough. For now.

 

I believe that both answers why Haer'Dalis would not seem particularly distressed by a romance he was in coming to an end, and indicates that Haer'Dalis is not using "the usual guy tricks you try on your local ditzy blondes"; he never refrains from expressing his Doomguard philosophy, and "the usual guy tricks" rather prominently feature false claims of eternal love. It's not just--or even mostly--that you're selling Aerie short, though I believe you are. Much more, you're selling Haer'Dalis short. He's frighteningly inhuman, nihilistic, obsessed with entropy; you would make him out to be a two-bit con man.

 

And you spoke of "the ToB resolution." That leaves out the SoA resolution, at Spellhold, which goes like this:

 

Aerie, my dove...are you well?

I've... I've just been thinking. About all this death, all these horrifying things Irenicus has done. He actually stole a soul and... and all these people died for nothing...

And for what? Some 'vengeance' that Irenicus wants! For that he throws people aside like mere objects?! I...I cannot believe that such evil is allowed to exist!

Haer'dalis! We must scour the face of Faerun of such foulness! The very stink of it clogs my every breath! No mercy! No mercy must be shown to such evil!!

Aye, my love! 'Tis grand to see you transformed into a maiden of destruction! Turned from innocent chrysalis into entropic moth! I hail your arrival!

I am not here to destroy, Haer'dalis! I want to stop Irenicus! I wish to fight against evil that exists in this world!

I will not sit idly by and be pathetic! I have paid too much attention to my own sorrows and experiences...and not enough to the evil that has surrounded me!

Speak as you will, my love, but you serve entropy, nevertheless. Your innocence has faded, as it should, and you have become a maiden who shall bring the end of others...my philosophy proven!

I don't care a whit for your philosophy, Haer'dalis! I am so full of anger that I cannot control it...and this callous evil that I see, it will pay!

As I said, my dove...and pleased I am to see it.

Well, I am not pleased! And it is obvious that you do not really care for me, after all! We are through, you and I!

Again, a natural end that has come...no less than expected, though I'll mourn its passing.

So be it! Come, then, <CHARNAME>...let us go and complete your quest. I shall fight by your side until this is over...and then I shall make my own way in the world for once.

 

Facts about Aerie: Aerie changes, at Spellhold or at Yaga-Shura's siege camp. Aerie sees Haer'Dalis differently. Aerie breaks it off with him.

Facts about Haer'Dalis: He does say he loves her. He does not say he expects their love to last forever--indeed, he's quite clear that his entire worldview is tied up in the idea that things fall apart. He interprets her desire to destroy evil as a desire for destruction for its own sake. He is philosophical about it when she breaks it off with him. He does not appear to change at any point. He does not break it off with her in either case.

Interpretations of these facts can make it a grand tragedy, a mildly sad situation where two people both meant well and fundamentally misunderstood each other, a brilliant, wise, and beautiful woman dumping a sleazebag who she realizes isn't good enough for her, a dashing rogue hilariously taking advantage of a stupid, vain, whiny woman--or a two-bit con artist taking advantage of a blonde ditz, with neither deserving much sympathy. Just in case it's not obvious, I think 3), 4), and 5) undersell BG2's writing and characterization badly, as well as being slightly mystified that anyone who care to write mods about the characters in them. (Yes, including the brilliant, wise, and beautiful woman and the dashing rogue--writing about a character who is always right doesn't give me the same feeling of disturbing pettiness that writing about a character who is always wrong does, but it still doesn't strike me as very interesting.)

[Domi]

That's quite food for thoughts, Kish, and yes, it could be resolved so much more interestingly and complex with the addition of the unknown - the PC's worldview. I actually think that your 5 ways form a perfect background for PC's attitudes and possible paths for her to waddle into H'D-A relationship and attempt to handle it.

[Kulyok]

Interpretations of these facts can make it a grand tragedy, a mildly sad situation where two people both meant well and fundamentally misunderstood each other, a brilliant, wise, and beautiful woman dumping a sleazebag who she realizes isn't good enough for her, a dashing rogue hilariously taking advantage of a stupid, vain, whiny woman--or a two-bit con artist taking advantage of a blonde ditz, with neither deserving much sympathy.

 

But what does this have to do with Aerie and Haer'Dalis? These are pretty cardboard interpretations, actually. Especially the second one, the favourite line of Latin American soap operas.

 

We are talking multilayered personalities here, I think. Or, rather, underdeveloped personalities, but underdeveloped in such particular way that everyone can see what they want to see - and it is wonderful. Unless they start to write NPC mods, of course - there the author's version may not work quite as well.

 

So, I'd rather agree to disagree - and go play Banter Packs.

[Domi]

I think what Kish is trying to say is that there is more than one way to cut the cake. And I would really want to see that the Player1 has the opportunity to define how she or he elects to treat the relationship between Haer'Dalis and Aerie, and have the choice of actions according to his or her take on the situation. And that NPCs did not just blindly agree to whatever PC sais if PC is not convincing enough.

[Kish]

I think what Kish is trying to say is that there is more than one way to cut the cake. And I would really want to see that the Player1 has the opportunity to define how she or he elects to treat the relationship between Haer'Dalis and Aerie, and have the choice of actions according to his or her take on the situation. And that NPCs did not just blindly agree to whatever PC sais if PC is not convincing enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually--I don't see why the PC's take on the relationship would even be particularly important to either Haer'Dalis or Aerie (with the obvious exception of it being fairly easy to alienate one or both of them by advertising that s/he sees them, and/or their relationship, as something they find offensive).

[Domi]

Actually--I don't see why the PC's take on the relationship would even be particularly important to either Haer'Dalis or Aerie (with the obvious exception of it being fairly easy to alienate one or both of them by advertising that s/he sees them, and/or their relationship, as something they find offensive).

 

If it is a love triangle situation, PC's point of view on the relationship defines her options. Unless you are suggesting that if Aerie is in the party, then Haer'Dalis-PC romance does not occur at all. It is a valid alternative, but I think back when JPS was still around he said something to the extent that there will be a conflict of interests between Aerie and PC. I am mostly worried that this conflict would be handled in a primitive way.

[Kish]

Actually--I don't see why the PC's take on the relationship would even be particularly important to either Haer'Dalis or Aerie (with the obvious exception of it being fairly easy to alienate one or both of them by advertising that s/he sees them, and/or their relationship, as something they find offensive).

 

If it is a love triangle situation, PC's point of view on the relationship defines her options. Unless you are suggesting that if Aerie is in the party, then Haer'Dalis-PC romance does not occur at all. It is a valid alternative, but I think back when JPS was still around he said something to the extent that there will be a conflict of interests between Aerie and PC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, I see. You're right, the PC would act and react quite differently depending on how the PC perceived the other two and the interactions between them.

I am mostly worried that this conflict would be handled in a primitive way.

Based on what JPS has posted in this thread, I don't think you have a lot to worry about.

If you do have Aerie in the party, however, I have tried to make sure that the situation will play out in a way that's interesting and in character for everybody involved. Players who like Aerie and want her to stay in the party will probably get the most out of this, and players who absolutely hate Aerie and want her to suffer will possibly be a little bit disappointed, but there should be something there for everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Arana]

I've come in rather late to this conversation.

 

Aerie is a picture of sweet innocents after being put through so much so young. The voice is just to mirror. I can't say I havn't used a voice like that when I'm toying around with my friends and feigning innocents.

 

And Bioware did a fair job making the characters flawed. I mean, we can't all be perfect like your's truely. (Note this nothing but a joke of a tired woman) I personally don't have Aerie in my party, because I wasn't too use to spell casters till now. But I did have her in my party for a while, I fould her conversations with the other NPC's amusing, I really liked her's with Jaheria. Unfortunetly that was back in the time where my computer was prone to sudden crashes. Buh-bye game file. I never could get far enough to rescue Haer'Dalis.

 

Back to my point. Flaws are what make character's great. Look at Minsc, his flaw is the fact he is not right in the head. Now how many people can say they hate the crazy man. Edwin is full of himself... but his mutterings are always amusing. I could list on but I feel I would end up to be a bore, and my mind is not all there right now. Haer'Dalis is fairly flawed himself... I think many people like him because he uses pretty words. In my experience online it seems most people can take being insulted or arrogance if the person in involved uses big, pretty, flashy words.

 

Okay... I've had my two cents. ~ducks behind a battered tin trashcan lid~ Pwease don't hurt me...