Rapier

[Ergopad]

Would someone bother to add new weapon type for BG, the rapier. I think the katana's graphic would be great, if the attack moves would be changed so that it mostly uses thrusts and only rarely (5%... 10%) slashes?

 

I tried to google it, but couldn't find the correct stats for rapier in AD&D. Could someone post them?

[CoM_Solaufein]

I believe there are rapiers in the Darkside of the Sword Coast mod.

 

Rapiers:

Weight: 4

medium size

piercing weapon

Speed: fast (4)

1D6 sm, med size creatures

1D8 large creatures

[Jarno Mikkola]

But, but, Rapiers don't belong into the AD&D; as if simplified greatly, the AD&D is normally said to be Middle Ages + Magic. Middle Ages is the period of 400 AD to 1500 AD according to this. And although the 1500 AD is the century that the Rapier design began, it's still a quite a leap.

 

On the other hand, if we look at the history, the Katana is out of it's time too, but then again, the basic design of the weapon has just improved(and shortened) with time because of the material knowledge etc. unlike the basic principle of the weapon handling, that makes Rapier so good weapon.

[Miloch]

Would someone bother to add new weapon type for BG, the rapier.

Ah... my favourite weapon, both IRL and in fantasy . I've added a couple of these here and there but not in any released mod so far.

I think the katana's graphic would be great, if the attack moves would be changed so that it mostly uses thrusts and only rarely (5%... 10%) slashes?

Oh no! *shudder* A katana is most definitely a slashing weapon; a rapier is a piercing-only weapon. The traditional fencing foil is indeed just a practice rapier. In fact, a real rapier *can* be used to slash, but rarely if ever is so used. Also, it is a straight weapon with a very narrow blade; a katana is curved with a medium-sized blade. Finally, it almost always has a guard of some sort (usually a basket hilt), whereas a katana does not.

 

Here is one I designed for MTS's last Iron Modder entry. I managed to make it within the 4-hour timeframe (or whatever it was) but unfortunately, MTS never got his entry in on time so it's been recycled as a randomly-placed item in the Aurora mod.

I gave it a short sword proficiency, which isn't absolutely accurate by any sword aficonado's standards, but it's close enough in PnP because they're both piercing, thrusting swords (and probably the only such ones - most others are slashing). You could use an "unused" proficiency but there are item and spell mods out there that use all these already I think (and they're hard to access in the engine, as far as leveling up etc.).

I believe there are rapiers in the Darkside of the Sword Coast mod.

None at all that I've seen; there are four cutlasses, however, which may have been what you were thinking of. The difference is the cutlass is a curved blade, much like a scimitar only wider and shorter, and also with a guard (unlike a katana). Yet another one I made for MTS's entry (not one I spent as much time on, but he said he wanted a "pirate sword" so I gave him two options).

You are right on the rapier stats though, with the exception that an unenchanted rapier does 1d6+1 vs. small/medium and 1d8+1 vs. large creatures; a cutlass does 1d6/1d8 (at least according to the 2e Arms and Equipment Guide; there may be other rulesets).

But, but, Rapiers don't belong into the AD&D; as if simplified greatly, the AD&D is normally said to be Middle Ages + Magic. Middle Ages is the period of 400 AD to 1500 AD according to this.

True, but the prototype for the rapier was probably being developed in the late 1400s, the same time primitive firearms started appearing in Europe (which had been known for some time in the Far East). This is roughly coexistant with the development of true "full plate" armour which attempted to block such missiles (unsuccessfully, in the end). The rapier is also allowable in standard 2e rules, which draws a line between it and guns (which are also allowable but not by "standard" rules). Certainly, if your campaign has swashbucklers (which BG2 does obviously) it will have rapiers and main-gauches and other such dueling weapons.

[Ergopad]

Wow, those look great.

 

I agree and rapiers (IRL) are definately one of the most beautiful swords there is. I've been thinking about buying one of Windlass Steelcraft's rapiers:

 

 

Though already ordered a hanger (mixture of cutlass and sabre) already...

 

And speaking about piercing weapons, does halberds do any piercing damage or just slashing damage? Would it be possible to change it, so that 50% of hits do 1d10 piercing and other 50% of hits do slashing damage? And was there other weapons too, that do multiple type damage...

 

It would be nice, if there was a modpack that would add those renaissance swords into game, like rapiers, cutlasses, hangers, small swords, main-gauches and basket-hilt broadsword/claymore.

[Galactygon]

Imagine how much work it would take to create all those .bams, especially the description .bam. I somehow imagined Rapiers should do 1D8 points of damage rather than "what the rules say". It should be the piercing equivalent of a longsword (and some speed factor added in).

 

That rapier .bam must have taken a lot of patience to do, Miloch. That one looks just awesome.

 

-Galactygon

[Miloch]

And speaking about piercing weapons, does halberds do any piercing damage or just slashing damage? Would it be possible to change it, so that 50% of hits do 1d10 piercing and other 50% of hits do slashing damage? And was there other weapons too, that do multiple type damage...

Halberds do piercing damage in my (Tutu) game. In theory you could make a halberd do either piercing or slashing by making it do 0 damage at the extended header, and putting the relevant damage on effects attached the that header (with appropriate percentages each). Or you could make multiple headers, which would allow you to switch between piercing and slashing, like switching between melee and ranged for throwing axes etc. There is also damage type 7 (piercing or slashing) but I haven't messed with that.

It would be nice, if there was a modpack that would add those renaissance swords into game, like rapiers, cutlasses, hangers, small swords, main-gauches and basket-hilt broadsword/claymore.

I had some of these planned for the next Lost Items, but some of the work is time-consuming - mainly doing the BAMs, as Galactygon says.

I somehow imagined Rapiers should do 1D8 points of damage rather than "what the rules say". It should be the piercing equivalent of a longsword (and some speed factor added in).

It is, really, since it does 2-7 instead of 1-8. It just has more of a weighted average.

That rapier .bam must have taken a lot of patience to do, Miloch. That one looks just awesome.

Thanks, but I'm not actually that happy with it. I've since used some different techniques to get "sketchier" results. In this case, I wanted to preserve some of the details so I might redo it with a sort of hybrid approach if I get around to it.

 

The inventory BAMs are sometimes easier, sometimes not. They're smaller, but have 2 frames instead of 1 (unless you're in plain BG1, in which case you need 4 frames for the description BAMs). Here are the smaller frames compared with the default short sword and scimitar.

And here's what they look like when you move them around.

What would be really cool would be if someone did new paperdoll and avatar animations, but that'd be an unbelievable amount of work.

[Galactygon]

Thanks, but I'm not actually that happy with it. I've since used some different techniques to get "sketchier" results. In this case, I wanted to preserve some of the details so I might redo it with a sort of hybrid approach if I get around to it.

A sort of different style wouldn't hurt; rapiers were stylish and revolutionary for their time.

 

The inventory BAMs are sometimes easier, sometimes not. They're smaller, but have 2 frames instead of 1 (unless you're in plain BG1, in which case you need 4 frames for the description BAMs).

...

 

You could try and visit the Armory of Toledo; they have an impressive array of rapiers you can use as sources for .bams.

 

What would be really cool would be if someone did new paperdoll and avatar animations, but that'd be an unbelievable amount of work.

I am pretty sure if someone had the patience to do all the flaming swords and shields, there would be someone willing to do rapiers. I am not sure if it is possible in the engine though.

 

-Galactygon

[Ergopad]

I am pretty sure if someone had the patience to do all the flaming swords and shields, there would be someone willing to do rapiers. I am not sure if it is possible in the engine though.

 

Where can I get the shields mod(?!!), I know there is flaming swords in 1pp and throwing hammers mod, but where can I get the shields mod? Because I just HATE those BG2 shields, compared to BG1 engine's shield.

 

Is your cutlass using scimitars animations, because scimitar in bg2 looks very much like cutlass? And does rapier use katana or longsword?

 

Paperdoll shouldn't be that hard to make, but adding avatar animation will be a huge job, thus not impossible if you have lot of time.

 

Those BAMs are great. It would be great to have those in the game. Though there should be non-enchanted and +1 versions too, so my little newbie pirrrrrate could wield his rusty cutlass from the start.

[Demivrgvs]

Where can I get the shields mod(?!!), I know there is flaming swords in 1pp and throwing hammers mod, but where can I get the shields mod? Because I just HATE those BG2 shields, compared to BG1 engine's shield.

Always from 1PP! They probably aren't included in the .exe of the main download, but you can find those wonderful shields in the respective threads.

 

P.S I love rapiers...I've added one myself to SR using a wonderful BAM taken from IWD's Cynism, but I think long sword's animation/proficiency is the most appropriate one in BG.

[Lemernis]

It's a common mistake to equate Faerun with Europe, btw, though it's undeniably the primary real world source that inspires it. Faerun borrows a mishmosh of features from medieval through Renaissance (guilds and universities are from the latter, for example).

 

Anyway, I think adding a rapier is a great idea. Nice work Miloch.

[Ergopad]

P.S I love rapiers...I've added one myself to SR using a wonderful BAM taken from IWD's Cynism, but I think long sword's animation/proficiency is the most appropriate one in BG.

 

SR=?

 

That's why I think the katana avatar animation would be closest thing to rapier, with adjusted attack animations (mostly thrusts). And longsword would be better in paperdoll. Btw, katana in IWD2 should definately modded, so that it uses BG2 katana animation!

 

Could someone post AD&D, not 3E, stats for these weapons too?

* Main-gauche

* Basket-hilt broadsword/claymore

* Small sword

* Hanger (?)

 

Btw, rapier wasn't ever a sword to be used in war or battles, but in the duels.

[Miloch]

P.S I love rapiers...I've added one myself to SR using a wonderful BAM taken from IWD's Cynism, but I think long sword's animation/proficiency is the most appropriate one in BG.

Yes, what is a rapier doing in Spell Revisions (or even Item Revisions, which you and Salk said was not adding new items, only modding existing ones)?

That's why I think the katana avatar animation would be closest thing to rapier, with adjusted attack animations (mostly thrusts). And longsword would be better in paperdoll.

AFAIK, you cannot mix and match animations thus - you'd have to pick one or the other unless someone created a new one (if that's even possible). So, I'd say longsword is probably best out of the default animations. You can, I believe, give it mainly thrusting instead of swinging or backswing animations (though you could give a few of those to simulate parries as well).

 

As for the proficiency, you could give it whatever you wanted. As above, I gave one a short sword, but long sword could work. The way you use it isn't really like one or the other, but as I said, it's mainly a piercing weapon, like the short sword, but with the reach of a longsword.

Could someone post AD&D, not 3E, stats for these weapons too?

* Main-gauche

* Basket-hilt broadsword/claymore

* Small sword

* Hanger (?)

Item		 Cost Weight Size Type Speed Dmg-S/M Dmg-L
Main-Gauche   3 g   2	 S   P/S	2	1d4	 1d3
Broadsword   10 g   4	 M	S	 5	2d4	 1d6+1
Claymore	 25 g  10	 M	S	 8	2d4	 2d8
Cutlass	  12 g   4	 M	S	 5	1d6	 1d8
Rapier	   15 g   4	 M	P	 4	1d6+1   1d8+1
Sabre		17 g   5	 M	S	 4	1d6+1   1d8+1

There are no small swords or hangers in Arms & Equipment. I believe these were later inventions (later even then rapiers - maybe 17th/18th c.) intended mainly for show, but they'd be similar to other swords such as rapiers and short swords. Possibly, the sabre is closest to the small sword, which is like a rapier, only slashing rather than piercing. Sometimes it had a slightly curved blade (though not as much as a scimitar or katana), sometimes a straight blade. The hanger is more like the cutlass I think.

 

As I said, I'd intended to add many of these to Lost Items (the original goal of the mod was to add underused weapons to BG1) and have done a few already (there's some discussion of that in the link in my signature). Also, as mentioned, the main task would be to come up with original graphics. There is little point to adding them otherwise IMO, as you might as well use the existing swords and scimitars if you're not going to give them fancier graphics.

[Ergopad]

I've understood, that smallsword is like a rapier, but in some cases didn't even had sharp edge, since it was for the thrusting. And usually with straight blade. A good example of smallsword is Norrington sword in PotC, which Will Turner gave him.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallsword

 

And yes, hanger is a cutlass basically, thus comes a slightly thinner-, but longer blade.

 

Short Sword could be a good proficiency for rapier, and graphics of Longsword, or maybe katana, since it has thinner blade. And cutlass fits perfectly to scimitar proficiency, as it basically is a scimitar.

 

But no point really to add a smallsword or a hanger, because they are so close to cutlass and rapier.

 

And how about -1 AC vs slashing/piercing bonus to main-gauche. And it is clearly a dagger.

 

So, what I'd like to see are: Main-gauche, Cutlass and Rapier. And atleast non-magical version and magical (+1/+2/+3) version of it. These weapons would fit perfectly to werewolf island and Ulgoth's Beard, since the weapons are basically "pirates" weapons anyways.

 

When are we going to see the new version of Lost Items. What are you planning to add to it? Are u interested to add these renaissance weapons to it too?

[Miloch]

And how about -1 AC vs slashing/piercing bonus to main-gauche. And it is clearly a dagger.

That could be one way of simulating it. I was thinking it should have a small chance to disarm an opponent (or possibly even break nonmagical weapons) but that is hard to simulate in the engine without resorting to hackery. Perhaps even a short-term Protection from Melee Weapons as discussed in the Item Revisions thread but that's perhaps too powerful for a main-gauche.

These weapons would fit perfectly to werewolf island and Ulgoth's Beard, since the weapons are basically "pirates" weapons anyways.

I don't think they'd be out of place anywhere on the Sword Coast. There's also the pirate's cave where you find Safana, and similar locations.

When are we going to see the new version of Lost Items. What are you planning to add to it? Are u interested to add these renaissance weapons to it too?

Well I'd planned to release it about a year ago heh, but other mods have taken priority. If you read the thread in my signature there's quite a bit of discussion on what will be added - specialist swords from a vendor who's made his way to the Sword Coast from the Shining South for example (to account for the awkwardness of adding katanas and such weapons early or making them common - these would be alternate versions of them, similar to Burmese swords, yataghans, falchions and the like). I'll get back to it after I'm done with the mods I'm working on at the moment. I did definitely want to add a few rapiers and other such weapons. I do have a patch for it, but it has mainly to do with containers, not new weapons. The weapons I revealed above should be in Aurora which will be available before the next Lost Items (who knows, they may even be in the last Iron Modder pack - I never really looked at it). There are also the cutlasses I already mentioned in DSotSC (though I've no idea what they use for graphics - hopefully something better than the generic scimitars).