Six's suggestions

[Guest Scribbles]

IR? Is that Item Revision? Wait what?

[Icendoan]

Yes, it's a typo. And, as such, I immediately picked him up on it.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

IR? Is that Item Revision? Wait what?

Sorry, should be SR not IR. Fixed.

[Icendoan]

 

Icen

[SixOfSpades]

Sword spider form available from Polymorph Self spell does have poison attacks. I'd guess that BG1 was developed under 2nd edition and when it came to BG2 they looked into 3rd manual, saw that SSs have poison and implemented it into the new spell. Among the way forgetting to update the old spiders.

I've just been digging through all the spider CREs in the game, and found that all of the Sword Spiders have SPIDSW1 as their weapon . . . which does a flat 2D6 damage, no Poison. Of course, the Polymorph spell could (and probably does) give the caster a weapon other than SPIDSW1, and thus does add Poison, but I don't think that takes precedence over the fact that all the Sword Spider CREs are nonvenemous.

 

And I agree, there is a notable lack of consistency between the BG1 and BG2 beasties. The plain Spider (the little tiny one) was introduced in BG2, and has a better THAC0 and AC than the Huge, Giant, Phase, and even Sword Spiders that date from BG1, and it's also more poisonous than all of them put together. True, it has only 2 hitpoints, but still . . .

[Demivrgvs]

I may not have so much complains about removing poison ability from the Spider Sword summoned via Spider Spawn, but what about the one from Polymorph Self? It would be a pretty lame form without it imo, am I wrong?

[SixOfSpades]

Hmmm . . . I'm of the opinion that the Movement Rate, THAC0, and ApR are enough to make it roughly equal to the other forms available from Polymorph Self (except the overpowered Mustard Jelly, of course), without any poison attacks. Still, none of the other PS forms have an elemental damage attack (unlike the Avenger's Shapeshift), so a counterargument could be made.

 

Still, it would clearly be inconsistent for only some Sword Spiders to be poisonous.

[Demivrgvs]

Polymorph Self

Hmmm . . . I'm of the opinion that the Movement Rate, THAC0, and ApR are enough to make it roughly equal to the other forms available from Polymorph Self (except the overpowered Mustard Jelly, of course), without any poison attacks. Still, none of the other PS forms have an elemental damage attack (unlike the Avenger's Shapeshift), so a counterargument could be made.

 

Still, it would clearly be inconsistent for only some Sword Spiders to be poisonous.

I don't think Spider Sword's movement rate is better than the standard one, anyway you may be right about apr is a good enough reason, it just isn't "special" imo.

 

I suppose you haven't seen this topic, else you would now that Flind's halberd deals fire damage, that mustard Jelly now has a ranged acidic attack and that I've added a Winter Wolf form with a Frostbite attack.

 

Regarding the Mustard Jelly form, are you referring to how it worked in vanilla with its total magic immunity? I'm not sure if it's still too powerful, let me now.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Still, none of the other PS forms have an elemental damage attack (unlike the Avenger's Shapeshift), so a counterargument could be made.

Sorry, but doesn't the Flind have a fire damage? Winter Wolf has cold damage, and Mustard Jelly has acid damage.

But the question actually is, do we want to say the spiderform is a Sword Spiders, if it doesn't do the same damage that Sword Spider does. Just rename it to the Arachno form.

By the way, the Jelly'es are really slow themselves, and as it usually is that you have to move towards the enemy, not the other way around, the Jelly looses quite much of it's power.

[SixOfSpades]

I don't think Spider Sword's movement rate is better than the standard one, anyway you may be right about apr is a good enough reason, it just isn't "special" imo.

In BG1, Sword Spiders were permanently Hasted . . . I'm not sure about BG2, most of them in Bodhi's Lair don't really have room to run (too many little spiders in the way, etc). True, ApR isn't exactly "special," but it and the Ogre could be your basic hack-&-slash creatures, with the Ogre better at fighting single foes, and the Sword Spider better at taking out lots of little baddies.

 

I suppose you haven't seen this topic, else you would now that Flind's halberd deals fire damage, that mustard Jelly now has a ranged acidic attack and that I've added a Winter Wolf form with a Frostbite attack.

Touche, I'd forgotten that one. So it looks like Polymorph Self doesn't "need" Poison at all, then.

 

Regarding the Mustard Jelly form, are you referring to how it worked in vanilla with its total magic immunity? I'm not sure if it's still too powerful, let me now.

Yes, the 100% Magic Resistance of the Polymorph Self form, but also (obliquely) to the laughably underpowered form from the Cloak of the Sewers, and the disparity between the two (and the actual Mustard Jellies you fight as enemies). Personally, I would make all Mustard Jellies equal (or close enough to it) to the regular Mustard Jelly CRE, and then bring Polymorph Self and the Cloak back down by making them shift the user, not into a Mustard Jelly, but into some other Slime or Ooze . . . would an Ochre Jelly be useful enough? Or just make one up; as Jarno says, "Just rename it the Arachno form."

 

I'm doing something similar with the Hivemaster now: His Shapeshifting ability lets him change into various Spiders, depending on his level, but the change between the CREs existing in the game is not a smooth transition. So I've taken the liberty of not basing the Hivemaster's forms directly on the CREs, instead tweaking each one a little, to keep them in line with the general power balance.

[lac]

I just killed a bunch of spiders on the way to Bodhi, and it sure looked as if the SS got more attacks in per round than the regular spiders. Indication of haste?

 

Laura

[Demivrgvs]

Regarding the Mustard Jelly form, are you referring to how it worked in vanilla with its total magic immunity? I'm not sure if it's still too powerful, let me now.

Yes, the 100% Magic Resistance of the Polymorph Self form, but also (obliquely) to the laughably underpowered form from the Cloak of the Sewers, and the disparity between the two (and the actual Mustard Jellies you fight as enemies). Personally, I would make all Mustard Jellies equal (or close enough to it) to the regular Mustard Jelly CRE, and then bring Polymorph Self and the Cloak back down by making them shift the user, not into a Mustard Jelly, but into some other Slime or Ooze . . . would an Ochre Jelly be useful enough? Or just make one up; as Jarno says, "Just rename it the Arachno form."

Then what do you think of SR and IR's Mustard Jelly? With both mods installed Polymorph Self and Cloak of the Sewer use the same "Polimorph Mustard Jelly" ability. I never thought its name was a problem of consistency, we may rename it if necessary, but I don't think it is. That being said a mod which revise BG's monsters to give them back many PnP abilities and qualitities would be great imo, but I'm almost sure that making all in-game Mustard Jellies match one another is not something I should do within SR.

 

I just killed a bunch of spiders on the way to Bodhi, and it sure looked as if the SS got more attacks in per round than the regular spiders. Indication of haste?

I don't remember if they used haste, but in PnP they surely aren't hasted! Developers may have applied it to make their attack animation faster, as these spiders are supposed to attack with all their legs at an amazing rate, but haste is not necessary to apply up to 5 attacks per round if that was your "concern".

 

P.S Six, this is an excerpt from a post of mine to which you may be interested: "I've recently noticed that there's not a single spell of Enchantment school at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level!! I'm quite sure I'll "fix" it in the next SR version by making Power Word: Silence, Blind, Stun, Kill enchantment spells (as per 3rd edition, and it actually makes sense imo)."

[SixOfSpades]

Then what do you think of SR and IR's Mustard Jelly?

I think they lack Magic Resistance. True, the 100% MR of the original (and ememy) form isn't feasible, but something like 75% seems roughly balanced (you can use it to really screw with a Lich, but you're still toast against a Beholder hive) while still remaining mostly true to the PnP rules. It makes sense that a Mage would able to turn himself into a close approximation of another creature, but not be able to go all the way.

 

I'm almost sure that making all in-game Mustard Jellies match one another is not something I should do within SR.

It is if you're only altering the creatures summoned by/shapeshifted into by your spells, so that (if need be) they're more like the creatures that exist "normally" in-game.

 

You might want to make the Flind's Halberd only +2 while the Ogre's is +3, because as it stands I see little reason for anyone to choose the Ogre. You could make the Winter Wolf a bit more interesting by giving them their ranged attack, "Can cast Icebreath 2x per day" or something.

The stats on the Sword Spider form I'm giving the Hivemaster are: 16 STR / 9 DEX / 9 CON, -3 bonus to THAC0, -2 bonus to AC, +2.5 bonus to ApR, attack strikes as +1 weapon, 2D6 Piercing damage, no poison, Hasted.

The original stats of Sword Spider CREs are: 16 STR / 9 DEX / 9 CON, 12 THAC0, 3 AC, 4 ApR, attack strikes as +1 weapons, 2D6 Piercing, no Poison, Hasted. As you can see, the only thing I changed were the bonuses to THAC0/AC/ApR, and the Sword Spider is the only BG1 spider form that does this.

 

I just killed a bunch of spiders on the way to Bodhi, and it sure looked as if the SS got more attacks in per round than the regular spiders. Indication of haste?

I agree, I think the Haste was primarily to speed up their attack animation and make them scarier, though it would also increase their 4 ApR to 5, which may have been part of developer intent. I'm keeping the Haste in mine because it also gives the Sword another distinction from the other Spiders.

 

I've recently noticed that there's not a single spell of Enchantment school at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level!! I'm quite sure I'll "fix" it in the next SR version by making Power Word: Silence, Blind, Stun, Kill enchantment spells (as per 3rd edition, and it actually makes sense imo).

I agree, Enchantment 6-9, Divination 7-9, Alteration 8 and Illusion 9 could all use something. As far as Enchantment goes, I would favor things like Mass Charm over the Power Word series, but the series seems equally Conjuration / Enchantment / Evocation, so as long as it's one of those three I really don't mind what school it's in.

[Demivrgvs]

Polymorph Self

Then what do you think of SR and IR's Mustard Jelly?

I think they lack Magic Resistance. True, the 100% MR of the original (and ememy) form isn't feasible, but something like 75% seems roughly balanced (you can use it to really screw with a Lich, but you're still toast against a Beholder hive) while still remaining mostly true to the PnP rules. It makes sense that a Mage would able to turn himself into a close approximation of another creature, but not be able to go all the way.

Actually in AD&D PnP they have 10% magic resistance (or SR 13 in 3rd edition), and considering it already has a vast array of resistances I wouldn't give it more than that amount of MR. A 4th level spell shouldn't allow a mage to "screw a lich" imo.

 

I'm almost sure that making all in-game Mustard Jellies match one another is not something I should do within SR.

It is if you're only altering the creatures summoned by/shapeshifted into by your spells, so that (if need be) they're more like the creatures that exist "normally" in-game.

I partially disagree...as I put gameplay balance, PnP consistency, and entertainment value, before "vanilla consistency" when it comes to revise something. As I said, I'd prefer vanilla's creatures to be more in line with their PnP version, but I don't like to force players to have a less interesting polymorph ability only because a vanilla's creature doesn't have the abilities it's supposed to have.

 

You might want to make the Flind's Halberd only +2 while the Ogre's is +3, because as it stands I see little reason for anyone to choose the Ogre. You could make the Winter Wolf a bit more interesting by giving them their ranged attack, "Can cast Icebreath 2x per day" or something.

Nice suggestion about Flind and Ogre, and that would allow a mage to "deal with" an Iron Golem with the Ogre form (though not so easily I suppose ).

 

The stats on the Sword Spider form I'm giving the Hivemaster are: 16 STR / 9 DEX / 9 CON, -3 bonus to THAC0, -2 bonus to AC, +2.5 bonus to ApR, attack strikes as +1 weapon, 2D6 Piercing damage, no poison, Hasted.

You mean that instead of setting AC and THAC0 the form grants a bonus to the caster's ones? I would be against it.

If it's the other way around, THAC0 -3 for the Sword Spider is incredibly low imo.

 

Missing spells for Enchantment/Divination/Alteration/Illusion Schools

I've recently noticed that there's not a single spell of Enchantment school at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level!! I'm quite sure I'll "fix" it in the next SR version by making Power Word: Silence, Blind, Stun, Kill enchantment spells (as per 3rd edition, and it actually makes sense imo).

I agree, Enchantment 6-9, Divination 7-9, Alteration 8 and Illusion 9 could all use something. As far as Enchantment goes, I would favor things like Mass Charm over the Power Word series, but the series seems equally Conjuration / Enchantment / Evocation, so as long as it's one of those three I really don't mind what school it's in.

You're right, but I do what I can with the spells the game provides me. Refinements provides a 9th level spell to both Illusionist and Diviner kits.

[lac]

The other name for Enchantment is Charm, and all the other charms are listed as

Enchantment/Charm, so I vote for Mass Charm being one too for reasons of consistency.