plot questions about Bhaal's essence (spoilers)

[Lemernis]

In writing some content for the mod 'Keeping Yoshimo' I'm trying to get a firmer grasp on the main plotline. I figured I'd post it here in General Discussion to cast as wide a net as possible. And these are general questions about the saga.

 

First, please tell me if my basic understanding of Irenicus' motivations in using the PC is correct:

 

Back when Irenicus was an esteemed mage among the elves, his hubris grew to the point that he boldly sought to become a god himself. I.e., through some sort of ritual he attempted to join the elven pantheon, the Seldarine. It was a dangerous gambit that could have proven very costly to the elves? I recall something to that effect... Anyway, he was thwarted from achieving that by the elves. (I forget how.)

 

Irenicus' punishment by the Seldarine was to be stripped of his own soul--and to exist as immortal without a soul. A fate worse than death. That's why he can no longer feel any emotional or spiritual connection to anything, as witnessed in his dungeon with the dryads, preservation of Ellesime's room, clones of Ellesime, etc.

 

Somehow Irenicus discovers that mortal progeny of Bhaal are scattered throughout Faerun. Each Bhaalspawn's soul contains some of the powerful essence of the dead Lord of Murder. So Irenicus devises a scheme to use the PC's Bhaalspawn 'essence' (via the PC's soul) to provide the power to regain his (Irenicus') own soul. This Irenicus happily achieves, and even crows about the fact in the game. (I guess at this point he has regained his mortal soul again? hence he can be killed?)

 

Empowered as such, Irenicus then takes the next step in his master plan: to achieve his original aim of becoming a god. (Lol, why are so many folks trying to become gods in this game? It's definitely an overused plot device what with Sarevok, Irenicus, and Melissan all striving for the same thing!)

 

Irenicus uses the Tree of Life (located in some other plane) for that. He does so by placing parasites on it to steal its energy (killing the tree in the bargain). He's using the tree's energy to try to become a god. The PC disrupts that, and kills him. But since Irenicus had taken the PC's soul, when Irenicus descends to hell the PC is compelled to chase after him and regain his soul. The PC takes the party with him (they die by entering the portal to hell, and are restored to life in the Prime Material plane afteward by the Seldarine?).

 

In hell the story is about the PC getting his soul back. The threat of Irenicus becoming a god has apparently been removed by killing him and dispatching him to hell.

 

***

 

Second, Bioware's Bhaalspawn plot as it develops in SoA and ToB is all extremely murky and confusing. Given the ambiguities within the story in the game, I want people's opinions about the following possible explanation:

 

Bhaal set up his attempted ressurection with the mechanic that when one Bhaalspawn kills another, the slayer takes the slain's Bhaal essence for him or herself--i.e., is empowered by it.

 

That makes Bhaal siring all those offspring a little more compelling. I.e., the Lord of Murder is pitting his progeny all against one another, with only one left standing at the end who will become powerful enough to restore Bhaal to life.

 

So far in looking at the game's dialogs I haven't found a full explanation of the 'Throne of Blood' that Melissan uses. On the one hand, it is does clearly state that the Throne of Blood acts as a repository for the scattered Bhaal essence. But on the other hand, there is a some suggestion that Bhaalspawn who slay other Baahlspawn grow in power as well:

 

When the Solar summons Yaga-Shura's deceased soul to the Pocket Plane, he states

 

"How many of the Five have you killed? Myself? Illasera? Probably Abazigal and Sendai, too? That is a lot of Bhaal's essence... and still one Bhaalspawn remaining."

 

And Melissan states

 

"'Twas I who harbored his (Bhaal's) avatar when the Lord of Murder was cast down to walk amongst us in the Time of Troubles. To his greatest priestess did he come for succor!"

 

"One of His priesthood needed to have access to the essence that would be collected from the Bhaalspawn... one of His priesthood would have to perform the necessary rites to give the dead Lord of Murder back that essence."

 

"And so great Lord Bhaal entrusted that duty to me. After His death, I alone retained access to His essence. And my power grew as each one of His mortal children died, their divinity returning to the source."

 

"I am nearly a goddess... with your essence added to that of the rest of the Bhaalspawn, I will control all of Bhaal's abyssal realm, the Throne of Blood."

 

"You are the single strongest Bhaalspawn that has ever been, more potent than any single one of the Five, even. Your essence belongs to ME and I WILL have it."

 

So I'm considering positing from all this that the ressurection process requires a mirroing of similar processes both in the Prime Material plane and a metaphysical plane. In the Prime Material plane, the scattered Bhaal essence consolidates as each Bhaalspawn slays another. And this is mirrored in the Abyssal plane, the Throne of Blood, a pocket plane that was created by Bhaal (and subsequently tended to by Bhaalite archpriestess Melissan). So as the number of Bhaalspawn are winnowed down, the Throne of Blood concurrently grows more powerful in the dimension that can actually power Bhaal's restoration.

 

I guess the question is, does the above outline work well for you? Or do you know of any source material that would contradict this? Is it taking too much of a liberty to posit a "Highlander"-style mechanic to all this?

 

Or would it be best to keep it simple: just have it that the Bhaal essence migrates to the Throne of Blood when each one one of Bhaal's mortal offspring dies, and collects in that repository. Eventually all of Bhaal's progeny will be die, somehow--and it doesn't matter how. The reconsolidation of all (or enough of?) that scattered Bhaal essence in the Throne of Blood is all that is required for Bhaal to be reborn.

 

But what I kind of like about the 'last one standing' model is that it uses killing/murder (among Bhaalspawn rivals) to power the ressurection. Bhaal's power then perhaps even increases in the bargain, i.e., through such a forging process he is made even more powerful once reborn. Something along those lines, anyway.

[Domi]

Irenicus' punishment by the Seldarine was to be stripped of his own soul--and to exist as immortal without a soul. A fate worse than death. That's why he can no longer feel any emotional or spiritual connection to anything, as witnessed in his dungeon with the dryads, preservation of Ellesime's room, clones of Ellesime, etc.

 

Elves do not have souls, they have spirits, those spirits are connected to the collective elven awareness. Irenicus's link to the spirit is severed, making him a mortal, just like a human. As Irenicus placed his individual self above the needs of the elvendom as a whole, the plan is that severed from the elven spirit, Irenicus will not be able to stand it and come back remorseful. He cannot bond, he doesn't feel like other elves do, in other words he looses what makes the elves so darn special. The most severe elven punishment is kicking an elf out of his or her native community, Irenicus get this punishment in one degree more severe, ie he's kicked out of the entire levendom, and he has a deadline - death - looming over him, death without the ability to enter Arvanaith, the elven afterlife, blah-blah-blah.

 

In the Deathstalker, I consider Bhaal's Throne of blood an allegory, just a name of his seat. I divide the prophecy into two part - the ortodox explanation that Amelyssan follows that the score of Bhaal's progeny has to be sacrificed to release the essence and bring Bhaal back with a proper ritual. The Heresy is the heresy of the children, that stipulates that of the children one will grow more powerful than the rest and come back as Bhaal reborn after taking in enough of the Lord's essence.

[Lemernis]

Irenicus' punishment by the Seldarine was to be stripped of his own soul--and to exist as immortal without a soul. A fate worse than death. That's why he can no longer feel any emotional or spiritual connection to anything, as witnessed in his dungeon with the dryads, preservation of Ellesime's room, clones of Ellesime, etc.

 

Elves do not have souls, they have spirits, those spirits are connected to the collective elven awareness. Irenicus's link to the spirit is severed, making him a mortal, just like a human. As Irenicus placed his individual self above the needs of the elvendom as a whole, the plan is that severed from the elven spirit, Irenicus will not be able to stand it and come back remorseful. He cannot bond, he doesn't feel like other elves do, in other words he looses what makes the elves so darn special. The most severe elven punishment is kicking an elf out of his or her native community, Irenicus get this punishment in one degree more severe, ie he's kicked out of the entire levendom, and he has a deadline - death - looming over him, death without the ability to enter Arvanaith, the elven afterlife, blah-blah-blah.

 

Okay, thanks for the specifics on this, I've never really studied up much on FR's elves.

 

I do know that the elven life expectancy is around 700 years. That is, elves are long-lived but mortal to begin with. I mean to the extent that their earthly body dies, i.e., they 'shed the mortal coil' in the physical world. A 'spirit' versus a 'soul' surviving in the afterlife seems like a semantic difference in some ways. Although I do realize it may be a qualitatively very different experience from a human "soul" in the afterlife.

 

Anyway, in life and death, both, the Seldarine have made it so that Irenicus' individual spirit will enjoy no connection to the collective elven spirit. But the important factor seems to be that once in the afterlife--which is eternal--that amounts to being in an immortal state of damnation. (Reincarnation is anathema to elves, right?)

 

Does anyone know exactly what Irenicus says when he finally succeeds in stealing the PC's soul? IIRC he's very pleased about it, and I'm recalling that he was feeling some sort of restoration of his old self from that. Maybe I'm not remembering it right, though. Anyway, I'm curious what he says, what specific language he uses. I'm trying to look up the dialog in DLTCEP, but I can't find it. What is the dialog named?

 

And for that matter, what are Ellesime's dialogs named as?

[Ardanis]

Bhaal essence migrates to the Throne of Blood when each one one of Bhaal's mortal offspring dies, and collects in that repository. Eventually all of Bhaal's progeny will be die, somehow--and it doesn't matter how. The reconsolidation of all (or enough of?) that scattered Bhaal essence in the Throne of Blood is all that is required for Bhaal to be reborn.

While this indeed is what can normally be derived from the game, I personally see no great harm in improvising. What I would advise against is altering known facts (should you come to this), not expanding the story with new stuff.

 

PS About a year ago I wanted to create a mod, which story would suggest there was a disturbance in the plane materia and an elven archwizard had been trying to resolve it. But unfortunately he was growing too old and only managed to pass his fearful knowledge to his best pupil - JI. With no one to believe him he, failing to find the source of the disturbance by conventional means, attempted to seize the power of the elven Tree but has failed once again and was cast out. By the time of SoA his mind had already been completely twisted with what was wrong and what was right etc.

But apparently I grew tired of modding an old game and switched my interests a bit.

 

What's my point? Go ahead if a story expansion is needed, but try to keep in line with established facts.

 

 

Try PPIRENI2, SUJON, SUELLE

[Lemernis]

Here's another thing that fits with the 'last one standing' invention:

 

Sarevok's own personal scheme is to try to use the carnage of a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate--all the murder therein, I guess--to vault himself to godhood. Sarevok has evidently come up with his own metaphysical method for achieving that. But such a plan is not mutually exclusive with what Bhaal has set up for himself via the Throne of Blood. Indeed, if we say that Bhaalspawn do take power from each sibling they slay, and if Sarevok has killed quite a lot already and is a main 'contender' in that design, then maybe Sarevok does have enough mojo to take Bhaal's portfolio along with some extra juice from a war he precipitates. I mean, he's out to take the portfolio from Bhaal to begin with. So he could care less what Bhaal was setting out to achieve. He's got his own agenda.

 

It's interesting to note that Sarevok is apparently tracking down other Bhaalspawn and killing his siblings. At least that's what the intro movie suggests (when he throws the guy off the roof). I mean, why else would he come after the PC when he's a (level 1) nothing?

[Icendoan]

I don't think you gain power from killing other Bhaalspawn, but you instead focus your own essence, which is what murder does to it. It would bring it to the forefront of your mind/soul/spirit/whatever and you could then harness it's powers. Meaning yes, you gain power of a sort, but it is usable power, instead of essence.

 

Icen

[Ardanis]

'Interesting, you have much untapped power'?

[Icendoan]

Exactly.

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

So... is it overreaching then to posit a "Highlander" sort of dynamic, based on what we do know?

 

It's not necessary at all for our mod, btw. I just thought it added something and made more sense of why Sarevok seems to be going around hunting Bhaalspawn.

 

Because again, what sense does it make for Sarevok to try to kill the protagonist before he or she has even left Candlekeep? The PC poses no threat. Why would Sarevok waste his time with that?

 

And if he's going to the trouble of killing the PC, is he then also going to try to kill every Bhaalspawn he can find because they might eventually pose a threat of some kind? Again, there's the intro movie where the (apparent) Bhaalspawn that Sarevok throws off the roof pleads for his life and says "Wait! There are others! I'll show you!" The victim seems to be hoping that he can bargain his way out by helping Sarevok hunt down other of Bhaal's offspring.

 

What motivation does Sarevok have for this?

[Cal Jones]

Sarevok's studied Alaundo's Prophecy so much that he can recite it by heart.

The prophecy mentions Gorion's Ward (in what context, we don't know), and no doubt Sarevok would then see the ward (ie, the PC) as a threat, and want to eliminate him/her before they became more powerful.

 

However, Sarevok's interpretation of the prophecy is not necessarily correct - if you read his diary, it states "I begin to see what I must do...death on a godlike scale." He is piecing together the facts with the aid of Winski, his mentor, but he hasn't got it quite right.

 

Melissan understands how the whole thing actually works - she's the priestess Bhaal entrusted with the essence. She requires all of it, or almost all, to ascent. However, getting all the essence isn't enough in itself - when you get the Bhaal-Melissan sequence in the Pocket Plane, Bhaal grumbles that nearly all the essence is there "and still you perform no rite."

So there is obviously a rite of some sort that is needed (or a helpful Solar, of course. )

 

With that in mind I don't think it works quite like Highlander or The One - the Bhaalspawn themselves don't absorb the essence of another they have killed - it just returns to the Abyss. But they will get the XP and level up.

[Lemernis]

Here's a sort of interesting find: http://www.iblist.com/book36810.htm

 

It says (emphasis mine)

 

"Summary (From the publisher):

 

 

Death to the Children of Bhaal!

 

On the run and hunted by everyone in Faerûn, Bhaal’s offspring are being wiped out. Instead of ridding the land of evil, each kill gives more power to a vicious group of Bhaalspawn intent on returning their father to the world.

 

Follow the ultimate battle of the children of Bhaal in this thrilling novel based on the computer game from BioWare and Interplay!"

[lac]

Ah, the essense 'returns to the throne'. Eventually there will be enough there

to enthrone a new God of Murder. But apparantly CHARNAME and Imoen are

not required to kill each other -- so there seems to be more 'energy' for want

of a better word spread out among the god-spawn than is needed to turn the

Throne into a God-making device ....

[grogerson]

Personal opinion: When one Bhaalspawn slays another, most of Bhaal's essence goes to the "pool" (BG1 end movie), but a small portion goes to the slayer. So both are increased in power. It would also explain why the priestess in Saradush states Gromnir was driven mad by the power he had. The Lord of Murder would want to ensure his offspring killed one another until either Melissan performed the ritual to return him or one became powerful enough to take over and return that way.

 

I also wonder why the gods themselves don't take a hand to stop his return. Are they bound not to interfere? Or is this some game among them, betting on whether Bhaal will succeed or not? The final Solar conversation does leave the question open.

 

As for Irenicus, I understood him to be self-serving even before his exile. He and his sister sought power, and tried to steal it from the Tree of Life. No hidden quest driving him mad, just a simple grasp for power.

[Lemernis]

Personal opinion: When one Bhaalspawn slays another, most of Bhaal's essence goes to the "pool" (BG1 end movie), but a small portion goes to the slayer. So both are increased in power. It would also explain why the priestess in Saradush states Gromnir was driven mad by the power he had. The Lord of Murder would want to ensure his offspring killed one another until either Melissan performed the ritual to return him or one became powerful enough to take over and return that way.

 

That's close to what I was pitching as well:

 

"So I'm considering positing... that the ressurection process requires a mirroring of similar processes both in the Prime Material plane and a metaphysical plane. In the Prime Material plane, the scattered Bhaal essence consolidates as each Bhaalspawn slays another. And this is mirrored in the Abyssal plane, the Throne of Blood, a pocket plane that was created by Bhaal (and subsequently tended to by Bhaalite archpriestess Melissan). So as the number of Bhaalspawn are winnowed down, the Throne of Blood concurrently grows more powerful in the dimension that can actually power Bhaal's restoration."

 

I mean, what we do know for sure is that the scattered Bhaal essence consolidates in the Throne of Blood. There's no question about that.

 

The question here is can we take the liberty of expanding and firming up something that is suggested (i.e., that Bhaalspawn increase their own personal mojo by killing one another).

 

The notion that Bhaalspawn might increase their own Bhaal essence through slaying others of their kind is suggested, I think. It's definitely not explicitly stated. But it is open for speculation. I'm just saying that I think it's a safe addition to the plot that Bhaalspawn do in fact grow more powerful with each Bhaalspawn they kill. I think it's supported enough with what we do factually know, and there's nothing glaring to contradict it. I think it drives the plot in a more evocative way.