Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[kreso]

Ty, Demi.

@Lawlight

Here are the files, replace the ones you have with these:

1

2

[Lawlight]

Thank you. Will test tommorow.

[Kalindor]

For the record, I enjoy the Berserker in its current state, minus shields perhaps.

[kreso]

Yet more feedback about Berserker, BG1

The more I play him, the more I find him weaker and weaker (for the record, I'm using current Beta version, unmodified). At any given SCS battle which involves mages, he's toast. Now level 7, about 80HP, yet his preformace in hardest battles is vaining. Battle vs Iron Throne flunkies. He usually dies while my fighter is still above 90% health (and tanking). Rage's penalties are mildly significant. Frenzy, as powerful as it may seem vs. fighters/monsters with no backup (the biggest part of BG1), has enormous drawbacks. He just dies so easilly. Not to forget how prone he is to disables, Web in particular, which is commonly used. I pretty-much wasted all of my undispellable potions just to get through a few usually hard, but with him almost impossible (without resorting to cheese) places, such as Cloakwood mine (>10 reloads, insanely hard).

I may buff him with protective spells, yet that gets dispelled and he can't drink potions to protect himself again.

He may be powerful with vanilla mages, but against stoneskin/imp.invis/sunfire/Web/MGoI he's extremely vulnerable.

I love him, he's fun and all, but overall - the weakest kit for SCS game.

No control is simply a bad, too hard trade-off for one extra attack and bonus damage/THAC0.

[Kalindor]

Do you think the offensive bonuses from his rage need to increase more with higher levels? I really like the loss of control as a gameplay element even if it's somewhat crippling and would be loath to recommend that it be removed.

[kreso]

Do you think the offensive bonuses from his rage need to increase more with higher levels? I really like the loss of control as a gameplay element even if it's somewhat crippling and would be loath to recommend that it be removed.

For vanilla, no, but even there he'll be weaker than any fighter kit, I'm quite certain.

His advantages are mostly noticable at low levels (something like 33% power increase). Once improved Haste comes into play, he looses the advantage of extra attack over others, they're capped. +2 damage per hit simply isn't that relevant and THAC0 bonus becomes a non-factor.

I feel that the trade-off is too big for an AI enhanced game. There are times when Frenzy is indeed useful, but those are easy skirmishes, mages with no real damage/protection etc. In the hardest battles, 12 seconds of being unable to maneuver, to drink potions, having penalty to AC, sometimes attacking your own (gets me thinking, it is not he who needs regen, it's everybody else ) is too much for him to handle. In addition, you can't do much to help him. If he uses Rage, he's boud to go in Frenzy. He won't get disabled so fast, but will in turn die to physical attacks/spells. Perhaps a mage/cleric multiclass completely devoted to him could help at high levels, again - not worth of it. For the first time in SCS, I feel unable to complete battle on top of Iron Throne tower at party level 7. My only option seems either using invisibility, which I hate since AI is poor against it, and finding a scroll of Chaos and preying that it works. Or not using him to fight at all, which is what I started to do if enemy is disabled since he's prone to Frenzy. Worst of all, he's my protagonist, and if he dies, it's game over. Not to forget he already ate pretty much all available potions just to survive Cloakwood Mine entrance, and I don't like such heavy potion-use dependant characters. He is cool, however. I'll have to try vanilla to see if he's any better there.

.EDIT

I finished that battle. Used stoneskin potions, and all other available, turning himself into this. He still spent much of his time sleeping, but survived. My other front-liner, under several less buffs, remained on her feet and fighting.

Anyway, gonna put this kit aside for now.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

@kreso, have you thought to disable Frenzy (at least the non-enraged one, but it might be worth trying both) and see how the kit would perform without it? I know it sounds radical, but it's jest a test. Else, just wait this evening and I'll upload something myself.

 

I finished that battle. Used stoneskin potions, and all other available, turning himself into this. He still spent much of his time sleeping, but survived. My other front-liner, under several less buffs, remained on her feet and fighting.

The True Fighter doesn't have better saves vs enchantments per se, thus if he resisted sleep better than the Berserker it's either luck or better buffs (though the inability to drink potions might put a non-enraged but frenzied berserker on a disadvantage).

One thing we might start to seriously consider as mandatory if we don't won't to give up Frenzy, is to add there immunity to mind-affecting spells. I'm curious to know what other beta testers think, kalindor in particular seemed to consider this kit extremely powerful rather than weak.

 

P.S I'll finish early this afternoon, I'll focus entirely on this kit as soon as I get back home.

[kreso]

Berserker

@kreso, have you thought to disable Frenzy (at least the non-enraged one, but it might be worth trying both) and see how the kit would perform without it? I know it sounds radical, but it's jest a test. Else, just wait this evening and I'll upload something myself.

I considered (and tried) a lot of stuff, mostly tinkering with probabilities and durations. Nothing that drastical as to remove Frenzy, however.

One thing I liked was

Setting duration on Frenzy effects to 6 seconds (1 round)

Setting probability to enter Frenzy 20 % chance (for both instances, Rage and non-rage)

This makes him quite a bit more controlable, i.e. he looses 1 round of controlled actions instead of 2. In addition, far less running away from him is needed.

In gameplay, this preforms something like - 1 or 2 rounds you control him, then 1 round you're without control, then again control etc. It wasn't bad overall, as I said I liked it. It helps his survability alot, and keeps his "wild" nature intact.

Perhaps adding more immunities to Frenzy as was discussed before wouldn't be bad. Not as per Rage, but Charm/Sleep/Confusion would definitely be good here. After all, his vunerabilty to Web alone makes up for it, and in BG2, Symbol and PW spells are equally lethal. (conviniently, Ring of Free action is on one of the enemies in Iron Throne battle ). Don't know how he'd preform vs other reflex saves such as Dragon's Breath.

However, such a short Frenzy duration has a big drawback: it means that Deathless Frenzy will be very underwhelming. Didn't try this at such high levels so can't say much on the matter.

The True Fighter doesn't have better saves vs enchantments per se, thus if he resisted sleep better than the Berserker it's either luck or better buffs (though the inability to drink potions might put a non-enraged but frenzied berserker on a disadvantage).

She had that Greenstone Amulet. Berserker has Rage to keep him safe from that, however this battle lasts more than his Rage.

 

One thing we might start to seriously consider as mandatory if we don't won't to give up Frenzy, is to add there immunity to mind-affecting spells. I'm curious to know what other beta testers think, kalindor in particular seemed to consider this kit extremely powerful rather than weak.

........

Well, consider the outcome. You get a fighter with bad AC, much less prone to getting disabled (yet still vulnerable to some), dealing big damage per round, and unable to switch targets/maneuver/drink potions.

Now read the sentence above again, disregarding the underlined text. Which do you prefer, at least for SCS?

About others thinking this kit is powerful, yes, I understand that with vanilla mages who never remove your buffs or use any maneuvers or spells to protect themselves, sure - he is powerful. From what I remember Stoneskin, or Sunfire don't even exist in BG1 for example. But then again, if you build a True Fighter with same stats/proficiencies etc. my bet is you'll find him just as powerful. A bit slower to kill stuff, but not far behind a Berserker.

 

P.S I'll finish early this afternoon, I'll focus entirely on this kit as soon as I get back home.

Take your time....it's nothing urgent. I think that in vanilla game, Berserker still kicks major a**. Not to forget the sheer fun this kit brings, and in BG1 his Rage+Frenzy makes up for 2 fighters together, if not more.

If I wasn't clear before, I urge you to keep the Frenzy state, no matter the cost.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

I considered (and tried) a lot of stuff, mostly tinkering with probabilities and durations. Nothing that drastical as to remove Frenzy, however.

One thing I liked was

Setting duration on Frenzy effects to 6 seconds (1 round)

Setting probability to enter Frenzy 20 % chance (for both instances, Rage and non-rage)

This makes him quite a bit more controlable, i.e. he looses 1 round of controlled actions instead of 2. In addition, far less running away from him is needed.

In gameplay, this preforms something like - 1 or 2 rounds you control him, then 1 round you're without control, then again control etc. It wasn't bad overall, as I said I liked it. It helps his survability alot, and keeps his "wild" nature intact.

...

However, such a short Frenzy duration has a big drawback: it means that Deathless Frenzy will be very underwhelming. Didn't try this at such high levels so can't say much on the matter.

Let's see...

For Frenzy's stats I'd suggest:

- Frenzy lasts either 2 or 3 rounds (this is mandatory for Deathless Frenzy)

- Non-enraged chance to Frenzy back to old 5% chance (10% is too much, especially with BG2 high apr rate)

- Enraged chance to Frenzy down from 20% to 15%

This means the chance to enter a frenzy while enraged goes down from the current 30% (10% + 20%) to 20% (5% + 15%).

 

We also have to try out the "regain control when target dies", which on paper should make him way more "party friendly" while preserving his wild nature, but I'd actually leave it out for at least one more test because it really doesn't work well with Deathless Frenzy or when fighting multiple targets in general.

 

Perhaps adding more immunities to Frenzy as was discussed before wouldn't be bad. Not as per Rage, but Charm/Sleep/Confusion would definitely be good here. After all, his vunerabilty to Web alone makes up for it, and in BG2, Symbol and PW spells are equally lethal. (conviniently, Ring of Free action is on one of the enemies in Iron Throne battle ). Don't know how he'd preform vs other reflex saves such as Dragon's Breath.

It might be worth spending a few words to see if we can give a distinct characterization to Rage and Frenzy. The way I see it Rage is a voluntary submission to a reckless fighting style, while Frenzy is an ecstatic state of mind where the Berserker has no control anymore on his wild nature.

 

If we agree on that, I'd dare to say that immunity to mind-affecting spells actually fit Frenzy much more than Rage, to the point where we might actually move all of them from Rage to Frenzy. Considering that once enraged the chance to enter a Frenzy are pretty high, it would still mean that more often than not Rage would still offer those immunities. Rage could get a +x to saves vs. those effects if necessary. Am I getting crazy?

 

Regarding other reflex saves, a frenzied Berserker is supposed to pretty much fail almost all of them (while frenzied he doesn't care about dodging attacks or spells), but there are two particular cases where I'm still not sure, Entangle and Web. I actually think an enraged Berserker would destroy those impediments one way or the other, at the cost of damaging himself in the process. Anyway, this is marginal, and we should probably focus on other things right now.

 

Take your time....it's nothing urgent. I think that in vanilla game, Berserker still kicks major a**. Not to forget the sheer fun this kit brings, and in BG1 his Rage+Frenzy makes up for 2 fighters together, if not more.

It may not be urgent but it bothers me quite a lot, especially considering all other Fighters seem to have reached a very solid build (speaking of which, glad to see you're trying WS again, I'm curious to know how medium armors affect him).

 

If I wasn't clear before, I urge you to keep the Frenzy state, no matter the cost.

LOL Don't worry, I won't give up so easily. A fully controllable Berserker just isn't a Berserker in my book.

[kreso]

Interesting. Not to get ahead of myself, I'll ponder about these a bit.

 

.....(speaking of which, glad to see you're trying WS again, I'm curious to know how medium armors affect him).

Ummmm....they aren't . My barbarian gets Mail of the Dead, the only acceptable alternative for WS within BG1 is Drizzt's Chainmail (speaking of which, this piece of armor is tailor-made fro WS. only 1 to attack speed penalty, no DEX penalty, AC1!). And there's no way I can kill him before I get to Baldur's Gate at least. Even then it would require significant potion abuse.

[kreso]

Berserker

Let's see...

For Frenzy's stats I'd suggest:

- Frenzy lasts either 2 or 3 rounds (this is mandatory for Deathless Frenzy)

 

Agree. I'd vote for 3 rounds. Otoh, you might consider prolonging it with levels, like Ki. He doesn't benefit form longer Frenzy in BG1 much.

- Non-enraged chance to Frenzy back to old 5% chance (10% is too much, especially with BG2 high apr rate)

- Enraged chance to Frenzy down from 20% to 15%

This means the chance to enter a frenzy while enraged goes down from the current 30% (10% + 20%) to 20% (5% + 15%).

You're saying that these chances stack? Lol. I often wondered how come Frenzy triggers so often even if the chance is the same for both states .

Anyway, seems fine I guess, need to try it out.

 

We also have to try out the "regain control when target dies", which on paper should make him way more "party friendly" while preserving his wild nature, but I'd actually leave it out for at least one more test because it really doesn't work well with Deathless Frenzy or when fighting multiple targets in general.

Drop it, for now at least. It makes no sense to cure himself of Frenzy. Shouldn't he be wanting it, at least from description?

 

It might be worth spending a few words to see if we can give a distinct characterization to Rage and Frenzy. The way I see it Rage is a voluntary submission to a reckless fighting style, while Frenzy is an ecstatic state of mind where the Berserker has no control anymore on his wild nature.

K.

 

If we agree on that, I'd dare to say that immunity to mind-affecting spells actually fit Frenzy much more than Rage, to the point where we might actually move all of them from Rage to Frenzy. Considering that once enraged the chance to enter a Frenzy are pretty high, it would still mean that more often than not Rage would still offer those immunities. Rage could get a +x to saves vs. those effects if necessary. Am I getting crazy?

This sounds good, but then Rage does seem underwhelming by itself. You'd have to take spells from both SR and vanilla into account, if you want to keep this viable for any install. Maybe also adding slight physical resistance into it? It's not like it wouldn't make sense. (Sacrifice to AC, yet hardens himself for battle ahead). Speaking of it, Diehard regeneration does seem bit slow .

Otoh, you might consider Rage as a "prelude" for Frenzy (like "warming up state"). I believe Ardanis might have suggested something like this before.

 

 

Regarding other reflex saves, a frenzied Berserker is supposed to pretty much fail almost all of them (while frenzied he doesn't care about dodging attacks or spells), but there are two particular cases where I'm still not sure, Entangle and Web. I actually think an enraged Berserker would destroy those impediments one way or the other, at the cost of damaging himself in the process. Anyway, this is marginal, and we should probably focus on other things right now.

Agreed.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

We also have to try out the "regain control when target dies", which on paper should make him way more "party friendly" while preserving his wild nature, but I'd actually leave it out for at least one more test because it really doesn't work well with Deathless Frenzy or when fighting multiple targets in general.

Drop it, for now at least. It makes no sense to cure himself of Frenzy. Shouldn't he be wanting it, at least from description?

Yeah, sort of, but the idea is that we might assume that once his enemy is down the Berserker can "calm down" by himself. Anyway, let's drop it for now.

 

It might be worth spending a few words to see if we can give a distinct characterization to Rage and Frenzy. The way I see it Rage is a voluntary submission to a reckless fighting style, while Frenzy is an ecstatic state of mind where the Berserker has no control anymore on his wild nature.

 

If we agree on that, I'd dare to say that immunity to mind-affecting spells actually fit Frenzy much more than Rage, to the point where we might actually move all of them from Rage to Frenzy. Considering that once enraged the chance to enter a Frenzy are pretty high, it would still mean that more often than not Rage would still offer those immunities. Rage could get a +x to saves vs. those effects if necessary. Am I getting crazy?

This sounds good, but then Rage does seem underwhelming by itself. Maybe also adding slight physical resistance into it? It's not like it wouldn't make sense. (Sacrifice to AC, yet hardens himself for battle ahead).

Otoh, you might consider Rage as a "prelude" for Frenzy (like "warming up state"). I believe Ardanis might have suggested something like this before.

I don't remember Arda suggesting it, but if he did shame on me, he was spot on imo. The idea behind this is that Rage isn't underwhelming because it pretty much includes Frenzy (with 20% chance per hit, even within BG1 a dual wielder Berserker can get to 60% chance to frenzy each round while enraged, which means that you'll almost always trigger it during the first 2 combat rounds of a Rage).

 

Furthermore, if we agree on the above mentioned concepts, Rage itself can now allow a little bit more control imo (the Berserker is still not completely "out of mind" until frenzied). This means that while certain actions should still be limited (e.g. no stealth or spellcasting) we might allow him to use innates and potions.

 

Speaking of which, with the upcoming new beta (hopefully around dinner as always), the Barbarian Rage will indeed no longer block the use of potions (regardless of what we do with the Berserker).

 

You'd have to take spells from both SR and vanilla into account, if you want to keep this viable for any install.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here...care to explain?

 

Speaking of it, Diehard regeneration does seem bit slow .

Oh, I forgot to say Diehard improves one more time at level 17 now (from 2 hp per round to 3). Deathless Frenzy is moved to either level 18 or 20.

 

 

Wizard Slayer

I'm curious to know how medium armors affect him.

Ummmm....they aren't . My barbarian gets Mail of the Dead, the only acceptable alternative for WS within BG1 is Drizzt's Chainmail (speaking of which, this piece of armor is tailor-made fro WS. only 1 to attack speed penalty, no DEX penalty, AC1!). And there's no way I can kill him before I get to Baldur's Gate at least. Even then it would require significant potion abuse.

LOL Well, I'll wait till you have some medium armor to give him.

 

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks that killing Drizzt within BG1 should not be possible at all for tons of reasons? Just to name a few:

- he is back in BG2 and I don't think there's a check to see if he's dead in BG1 (but BG2 is plenty of these issues)

- anyone who has read at least the first two books could tell you that a BG1 party should really be no match for even a young Drizzt

- balance wise, Drizzt's equipment is simply insane for BG1, it should not be available

[kreso]

Berserker

Furthermore, if we agree on the above mentioned concepts, Rage itself can now allow a little bit more control imo (the Berserker is still not completely "out of mind" until frenzied). This means that while certain actions should still be limited (e.g. no stealth or spellcasting) we might allow him to use innates and potions.

Like it.

 

Speaking of which, with the upcoming new beta (hopefully around dinner as always), the Barbarian Rage will indeed no longer block the use of potions (regardless of what we do with the Berserker).

T-up. Thing is, both Barbarian and Berserker already have penalties within their rages. I'm perfectly fine with Barbarians using them.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about here...care to explain?

Don't vanilla spells all force a save vs.spell to avoid/half damage? You'd make Berserker more likely to avoid both Confusion and Fireball in vanilla. I may be wrong about this particular spell, but in general, save vs spells keeps you out of harm's way for a lot of vanilla spells.

 

Oh, I forgot to say Diehard improves one more time at level 17 now (from 2 hp per round to 3). Deathless Frenzy is moved to either level 18 or 20.

Cool.

 

 

Wizard Slayer

LOL Well, I'll wait till you have some medium armor to give him.

Np, I'll find something for him then...this is spot-on if you give him medium armor:

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks that killing Drizzt within BG1 should not be possible at all for tons of reasons? Just to name a few:

- he is back in BG2 and I don't think there's a check to see if he's dead in BG1 (but BG2 is plenty of these issues)

- anyone who has read at least the first two books could tell you that a BG1 party should really be no match for even a young Drizzt

- balance wise, Drizzt's equipment is simply insane for BG1, it should not be available

His chain is, within DEX penalty system, the best AC piece of equipment in BG1. If you don't want to witness a horde of WSlayers dressed as Drizzt once you release full mod, leave them in leather I'd say. Leave such AC equipment for BG2.

On your notes, there is a check for killing Drizzt in BG1 I believe....sets a Global Variable or something.

And equipment is imbalanced, yes. I never usually kill him since it's too taxing on potions.

[kreso]

Frenzy

I think we can differentiate it from Inner Focus.

It's activation time has to remain instant, because we probably do not want to interrupt AI from using it. However, what if the effect kicks in after a short delay? Even PnP materials suggest that berserker needs some time to psych himself up.

 

For the delay, I'd use one round.

Found it.

[Kalindor]

Berserker

against stoneskin/imp.invis/sunfire/Web/MGoI he's extremely vulnerable.

I have no issue with this. He is a crazed beatdown machine, not a Wizard Slayer. If he sucks against wizards with magical defenses, that isn't surprising or necessarily undesirable from a balance perspective. If his bonuses are not good enough to make up for it with his proficiency against non-mages, then that is definitely a balance issue.

 

I would be in favor of Berserker Frenzy and Rage both granting immunity to mind-affecting spells. kreso mentioned that Web is difficult for the Berserker to deal with. I agree. You could address that by helping his saves or whatever, but that may take away some of the luster from the Barbarian's focus on mobility.