Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

Kensai

I've tried out Kensai in ToB. He can win many battles by himself alone. He can't harm mages (can't use Deathbow if he used Ki Dodge) but he obliterates grunts extremly fast. I know it's nothing "worse" than a kensai/mage but at least he has an "inactive" period while his primary class is inactive.

The good thing about making certain powerful abilities last a single round (or a single attack as soon as custom sec types will be up) is that you cannot combine them, keeping potential in check.

 

Anyway, I assume Ki Dodge needs a small nerf, but what about Ki Step? You never mentioned it again (afair it was your favourite ability for BG1), is its level 10 upgrade worth it or not?

 

Regarding Ki Strike getting another update I'm not sure. You don't seem to need tips, but have you tried using it in the second round of a WWA? It should be nasty (negates thac0/damage penalties actually turning them into small bonuses). I don't like your suggested upgrade because it would make Critical Stike HLA look like a gimped Ki Strike. Overall I think the ability is fine (you do remember it was kinda OP with 2 rounds duration, don't you?), and more likely it is just that Ki Dodge current OP-ness is overshadowing it a little bit too much.

[kreso]

Kensai

The good thing about making certain powerful abilities last a single round (or a single attack as soon as custom sec types will be up) is that you cannot combine them, keeping potential in check.

True, altough this imo hurts WS the most. Needles to say, if any of his abilities lasted longer he'd be broken.

 

Anyway, I assume Ki Dodge needs a small nerf, but what about Ki Step? You never mentioned it again (afair it was your favourite ability for BG1), is its level 10 upgrade worth it or not?

Well, lets say that it rounds up the Kensai's abilities. One thing still makes him vulnerable (disables) but being able to dodge a Spell Trigger with 3 Skull Traps is awesome. It can be hard to use (needs clean aura, same as WS) but it definitely pays not to use things such as Ki Strike when fighting mages. It does dodge quite a bit of stuff....still need to see if it can avoid ADHW (hopefully not). Wish I had this is certain BG1 encounters.

 

Regarding Ki Strike getting another update I'm not sure. You don't seem to need tips, but have you tried using it in the second round of a WWA?

Well, second round of WW I usually left for activating Critical Strike...I'll try it out.

 

I don't like your suggested upgrade because it would make Critical Stike HLA look like a gimped Ki Strike.

I know. .But making criticals with max damage is awesome

 

Overall I think the ability is fine (you do remember it was kinda OP with 2 rounds duration, don't you?)

,

3 rounds made it quite OP, 2 was fine I guess - that's why I suggested a buff...Imp.haste nerf keeps this in check quite a bit. It's power is quite dependant on weapon used (2-handed sword and Halberd make the most out of it, followed by katana and bastard sword)

 

and more likely it is just that Ki Dodge current OP-ness is overshadowing it a little bit too much.

 

This is very true as well. There's little reason to waste a Ki Pool charge on it when you've got Ki Dodge.

[kreso]

I've tried out a Wizard Slayer some more (BG1) with chance for spell failure set to 40%. SCS mages behave as they should i.e. they cast spells, or at least try to. He's still a powerhouse, even tough now mages actually stand a chance to fight against him, otherwise they just ran. Very nice class. I have yet to try him in melee, given that I tend to stick him Light Crossbow of Speed for all purposes. I think he really gets into his own in BG2, when more items providing MR become available so he doesn't rely on Inner Focus so much (very powerful skill in BG1. The only spells that it can't dodge with SCS are Chaos, Cone of Cold and Sunfire) and can freely use Disruptive Strike, and his HP pool will give him more melee options.

[kreso]

More of Berserker

Here are some rough ideas, maybe some will be good:

- the concept of the class (heavy armored slow warrior) doesn't exactly go with +1 APR. This has been mentioned already, supposedly it's a PnP thing. Now, my suggestion would be to actually remove it. With SR Imp.haste it's only useful if you're not dual-wielding, cause of the apr cap. Dual-wielding makes Frenzy combat bonuses almost redundant, ditto WW attack.

- instead, how about a big, scalable damage bonus when Frenzied? Something like +4(1st), +8(10th), +12(19th)?

-it would further balance him out in BG1 (makes a huge difference there, almost unfair, especially at 1-3 levels) and actually make him better in BG2 (he does need a buff there)

- all weapon styles would benefit him in the long run

- he'd scale better and more "fluently", this way he's super poweful early and gets little progress later

- adding an ability, Demi already mentioned it, Come and Get Me. Alas, it would be imo better to not grant extra apr but instead a small (2d4, 3d4) "fireshield-like" effect (slashing damage or something, it would be best if he could use damage type for weapon used) with a probabilty to trigger when struck, or, an ability he can activate which penalize his AC and grant the above mentioned trigger-when-hit effect.

Toughts?

[kreso]

- this Come and Get me would make for a perfect synergy with Deathless Frenzy later in ToB

[kreso]

No comments on above tweak?

Nvm, anyhow - is it possible for to assign a "Protection from creature type" (where creature would be Berserker) on all party members when Berserker is in Frenzy?

 

EDIT:

I think this works....I assigned "Protection from creature type - PC" to Frenzy, target - Party. I need to check this more, but so far he never attacks party member, regardless of their position.... This works only if Berserker is PC...maybe some different creature type could replace PC, but I don't know what the setting would be.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

No comments on above tweak?

Sorry I wanted to reply right away back when I read it, but I was busy and ended up forgetting to do so.

 

- the concept of the class (heavy armored slow warrior) doesn't exactly go with +1 APR. ... Now, my suggestion would be to actually remove it. ...

- instead, how about a big, scalable damage bonus when Frenzied? ...

Well, it might sound strange but I've always been against the +1 apr. It doesn't fit the heavy armored, hard hitter concept imo, and it also slightly overlaps with Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy (ideally my idea was for the latter to be the less accurate but faster rager, while the Berserker was slower but more accurate and damaging).

 

That +1 apr is there because Arda managed to convince me to try it out by saying "it's a PnP thing" and that argument is very convincing when used against me.

 

Balance-wise: when it comes to scale it better between early BG1 and BG2, Frenzy apr bonus could be splitted into +1/2 at level 1 and +1 at a later level. Higher damage output scale better by itself as the Berserker gains higher apr with GM and levels 7 and 13.

 

Concept-wise: I really prefer heavy damage over higher apr. On a side note, I had a half idea of making Frenzy automatically activate Offensive Stance. Mind you, within PnP the Frenzied Berserker gains a unique "Improved/Supreme Power Attack".

 

I'll ponder about it a little more, but I'm curious to know what other testers or players think about it.

 

- adding an ability, Demi already mentioned it, Come and Get Me. Alas, it would be imo better to not grant extra apr but instead a small (2d4, 3d4) "fireshield-like" effect (slashing damage or something, it would be best if he could use damage type for weapon used) with a probabilty to trigger when struck, or, an ability he can activate which penalize his AC and grant the above mentioned trigger-when-hit effect.

I don't particularly like the idea of a fireshield-like effect. It would look strange imo.

 

Nvm, anyhow - is it possible for to assign a "Protection from creature type" (where creature would be Berserker) on all party members when Berserker is in Frenzy?

Mmm...interesting idea, but I'm not sure we can make it work flawlessly for both PC and AI. I'll study this matter a bit this afternoon and let you know.

[kreso]

Berserker

Sorry I wanted to reply right away back when I read it, but I was busy and ended up forgetting to do so.

Np.

 

That +1 apr is there because Arda managed to convince me to try it out by saying "it's a PnP thing" and that argument is very convincing when used against me.

I know.

 

Balance-wise: when it comes to scale it better between early BG1 and BG2, Frenzy apr bonus could be splitted into +1/2 at level 1 and +1 at a later level. Higher damage output scale better by itself as the Berserker gains higher apr with GM and levels 7 and 13.

Exactly. Since Kensai already surpasses him in raw AC numbers/mobility, then Berserker can hit harder, if not more accurate. What bothers me with +1 apr is Imp.haste limiting attacks to 6 (this is a good decision, just not for dual-wielding Berserker!) and the fact that it's extremely powerful (read:imba) in early levels.

 

Concept-wise: I really prefer heavy damage over higher apr. On a side note, I had a half idea of making Frenzy automatically activate Offensive Stance. Mind you, within PnP the Frenzied Berserker gains a unique "Improved/Supreme Power Attack".

I like this idea about Offensive Stance. I don't see the need for a seperate stance (especially in BG2, it's mandatory that you use it on Berserker) when it can be merged into 1 single ability. Furthermore, THAC0 bonuses are not exactly what imo Berserker should be about (if anything, he should be penalized if Frenzied imo). All for it.

I know about their Power Attack....you have some ideas about implementation?

 

I'll ponder about it a little more, but I'm curious to know what other testers or players think about it.

Likewise.

 

- adding an ability, Demi already mentioned it, Come and Get Me. Alas, it would be imo better to not grant extra apr but instead a small (2d4, 3d4) "fireshield-like" effect (slashing damage or something, it would be best if he could use damage type for weapon used) with a probabilty to trigger when struck, or, an ability he can activate which penalize his AC and grant the above mentioned trigger-when-hit effect.

I don't particularly like the idea of a fireshield-like effect. It would look strange imo.

I know. It would fit him, tough.

 

Nvm, anyhow - is it possible for to assign a "Protection from creature type" (where creature would be Berserker) on all party members when Berserker is in Frenzy?

Mmm...interesting idea, but I'm not sure we can make it work flawlessly for both PC and AI. I'll study this matter a bit this afternoon and let you know.

Well, I think it definitely works for PC (even Shadowkeeper says that spell dvcl.323 opcode prot.from.... is applied to party)...am not sure about other "creature types". Check it out, since that "goodbutred" etc. mean very little to me. Anyways, if you can get it to work it would be grand.

[lynx]

Since EA isn't relative, the ai would just have to use any of the enemy states. You could improve that by also checking specifics perhaps, since there are sometimes enemies battling each other. Not sure if that case can be resolved perfectly.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

On a side note, I had a half idea of making Frenzy automatically activate Offensive Stance. Mind you, within PnP the Frenzied Berserker gains a unique "Improved/Supreme Power Attack".

I like this idea about Offensive Stance. I don't see the need for a seperate stance (especially in BG2, it's mandatory that you use it on Berserker) when it can be merged into 1 single ability. Furthermore, THAC0 bonuses are not exactly what imo Berserker should be about (if anything, he should be penalized if Frenzied imo). All for it.

I know about their Power Attack....you have some ideas about implementation?

Well, either we make the Berseker use a custom Offensive Stance which grants more damage than True Fighter's one, or we could make Frenzy add more damage and consider it as if the Supreme Power Attack is activated only while frenzied.

 

Nvm, anyhow - is it possible for to assign a "Protection from creature type" (where creature would be Berserker) on all party members when Berserker is in Frenzy?

Mmm...interesting idea, but I'm not sure we can make it work flawlessly for both PC and AI. I'll study this matter a bit this afternoon and let you know.

Well, I think it definitely works for PC...am not sure about other "creature types". Check it out, since that "goodbutred" etc. mean very little to me. Anyways, if you can get it to work it would be grand.

The problem is that afaik if I use ProCreatureType to make the party protected from PC or ALLY the frenzied Berserker would indeed work as we wish, but you could not make your own party members target each others (e.g. your cleric cannot cast a Cure Wound spell on an them). Am I wrong?

 

Furthermore, the AI should have to use a different version of Frenzy to keep into account the different allegiance.

 

Since EA isn't relative, the ai would just have to use any of the enemy states. You could improve that by also checking specifics perhaps, since there are sometimes enemies battling each other. Not sure if that case can be resolved perfectly.

I'm afraid it can't.

[kreso]

Berserker

Well, either we make the Berseker use a custom Offensive Stance which grants more damage than True Fighter's one, or we could make Frenzy add more damage and consider it as if the Supreme Cleave Power Attack is activated only while frenzied.

Second option, definitely.

 

The problem is that afaik if I use ProCreatureType to make the party protected from PC or ALLY the frenzied Berserker would indeed work as we wish, but you could not make your own party members target each others (e.g. your cleric cannot cast a Cure Wound spell on an them). Am I wrong?

You're not wrong I'm afraid. He is indeed un-targetable by friendly spells. If this would apply to Cure spells, I'd still be happy - let's say he's immune to healing as per PnP (all he would lack is Mass Cure immunity I guess). However, he becomes immune to all targetable spells (Imp.haste, Chaotic Commands etc.). That's bad.

 

Edited by Demi: I meant Supreme Power Attack, not Supreme Cleave.

[Ardanis]

EDIT:

I think this works....I assigned "Protection from creature type - PC" to Frenzy, target - Party. I need to check this more, but so far he never attacks party member, regardless of their position.... This works only if Berserker is PC...maybe some different creature type could replace PC, but I don't know what the setting would be.

Just to confirm, it won't work.

[kreso]

EDIT:

I think this works....I assigned "Protection from creature type - PC" to Frenzy, target - Party. I need to check this more, but so far he never attacks party member, regardless of their position.... This works only if Berserker is PC...maybe some different creature type could replace PC, but I don't know what the setting would be.

Just to confirm, it won't work.

What do you mean?

[Ardanis]

What Demi has said. ProCreature makes the target to be completely ignored by the type specified - spellcasting and scripting included.

As if that was not enough, you can't specify a single active creature - changing its IDS parameters is not an option, and there can be multiple berserkers in the field. Specifics are strictly off limits as well, because they are being used for other scripting purposes, such as defining groups of otherwise identical creatures (think of factions) - you can break the plot somewhere with changing that.

[kreso]

Thanks for explanation.

Well, I noticed that bad stuttering happens when a Kivan had a banter to trigger....this must be a side-effect of my tweaking.

Ok, this idea should than be dropped, the flaws and dangers of this are too big to handle in any way I guess.

 

P.S.

As for +1 attack for Frenzy....it is per PnP, but he's also immune to Haste and Speed weapon properties within those rules, no?