Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[kreso]

Berserker

I would be in favor of Berserker Frenzy and Rage both granting immunity to mind-affecting spells. kreso mentioned that Web is difficult for the Berserker to deal with. I agree. You could address that by helping his saves or whatever, but that may take away some of the luster from the Barbarian's focus on mobility.

This. New Berserker does seem a bit mellow in BG1. Haven't tried him yet in BG2, but such a low chance for Frenzy in BG1 is not to my tastes tbh.

At least consider save vs spells bonus for Rage. What happens is that he usually gets Held or Charmed before he even hits anything.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

I would be in favor of Berserker Frenzy and Rage both granting immunity to mind-affecting spells. kreso mentioned that Web is difficult for the Berserker to deal with. I agree. You could address that by helping his saves or whatever, but that may take away some of the luster from the Barbarian's focus on mobility.

This. New Berserker does seem a bit mellow in BG1. Haven't tried him yet in BG2, but such a low chance for Frenzy in BG1 is not to my tastes tbh.

At least consider save vs spells bonus for Rage. What happens is that he usually gets Held or Charmed before he even hits anything.

I'm starting to be confused, 10% chance was too high and 5% is too low? Or do you mean the enraged 20% compared to old 30%?

 

Anyway, I can indeed consider to grant improved saves vs. mind-affecting spells while enraged, but in place of the current ones vs. death. Both would be too much imo, wouldn't they?

[kreso]

Berserker

I'm starting to be confused, 10% chance was too high and 5% is too low? Or do you mean the enraged 20% compared to old 30%?

Anyway, I can indeed consider to grant improved saves vs. mind-affecting spells while enraged, but in place of the current ones vs. death. Both would be too much imo, wouldn't they?

You're not alone in confusion . It's very hard to make an approximation of this kit.

Speaking of BG1 - if enraged, he will Frenzy almost 100% time sometime in between those 5 rounds of Rage.

If not, he will almost never Frenzy, even if dual-wielding (same chance as base for criticals), especially early with 2 attacks. And this is what bothers me.

Now, in BG2, things change again. 10% is indeed too high for BG2, it means you'll Frenzy for 40% or more time.

I'm at a loss with these chances.

On a good side - Frenzy doesn't always last for full 18 seconds if all oponnents are dead. I suspected this before, but now I'm sure. Berserker must see a target very close to him to attack. It's quite simple to pull the party a bit behind him when he goes yellow, he chills down quite fast after everybody standing close to him dies. I'm still not quite sure just what the parameters are for Frenzy to go on, however.

And yes for bonus vs Spells instead of Death. Why would he be prone to Charm if he's "psyching up" for battle and not to Poison, for example?

Just my 2 cents.

[Kalindor]

You could make the Frenzy chance start at 15% base +10% while enraged, and decrease the base percent by 2% every 3 levels, down to a 5% chance at level 16.

 

Perhaps do the following: large bonus to save vs. mind-affecting (or however you can do this) while enraged with complete immunity while frenzied. As I mentioned above, complete immunity to mind-affecting spells when either frenzied or enraged would suit me.

[Ardanis]

I'm not yet sure if we can make it work, but what if the Frenzy probability were to go up for every round of fighting, and work on per-round rather than per-hit basis?

 

Base chance is 10%. When you land a hit, you get the chance to go berserk, otherwise you're immune to it for this round and have you frenzy chance increased by 5% for the next 2-3 rounds, rinse, repeat. I'd stop at 50%. If you take a breather and don't attack anything for few rounds, then the build up wears off and you're free to start again with 10% - I think we can even make it partial, i.e. it drops by say 10%/round.

 

When you do go berserk, the probability keeps accumulating, but you do get to have a free round of sanity when it ends (immune to cumulative Frenzy for the duration of it + 1 round).

 

When enraged your chance to enter Frenzy is doubled.

[kreso]

I tried out berserker in BG2 today.

Frenzy triggers in nice amounts with sufficient APR, and battles somehow seem to last long enough to witness the effect.

I stocked my Berzerker with all regen items I could find, and preforms decent enough in combat.

Not for powergamers, not for a no-reload (altough, this might indeed be great fun), not for the faint of heart and requires pre-buff, just like any other fighter.

Overall....

As much as I whined about him before, seems decent and spot-on.

T-up for potions in Rage, this little tweak helps immensly to get that Frenzy going, and after it you no care for "Remove magic" anymore.

All said and done, gonna play him some more and give more feedback tomorrow.

Nice job Demi.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

You could make the Frenzy chance start at 15% base +10% while enraged, and decrease the base percent by 2% every 3 levels, down to a 5% chance at level 16.

I thought about it, but I don't like it conceptually, and it's not as easy as it sounds to implement (it involves lot of files, multiple versions of Frenzy spl and the character becoming immune to each of them as he grows in level - not worth it for just tweaking a % chance imo).

 

@Arda, who's going to write down the in-game description for such behaviour? Jokes aside, I don't want the whole Rage + Frenzy thing to become so complicated and difficult to describe.

 

I tried out berserker in BG2 today.

Frenzy triggers in nice amounts with sufficient APR, and battles somehow seem to last long enough to witness the effect.

I stocked my Berzerker with all regen items I could find, and preforms decent enough in combat.

Not for powergamers, not for a no-reload (altough, this might indeed be great fun), not for the faint of heart and requires pre-buff, just like any other fighter.

Overall....

As much as I whined about him before, seems decent and spot-on.

T-up for potions in Rage, this little tweak helps immensly to get that Frenzy going, and after it you no care for "Remove magic" anymore.

All said and done, gonna play him some more and give more feedback tomorrow.

Nice job Demi.

Great! Sounds like it did not go so bad then.

 

For BG1 I'd still wait for kalindor and other testers to play it a little bit more before drawing conclusions again.

[kreso]

Berserker

...Great! Sounds like it did not go so bad then.

It didn't.

 

For BG1 I'd still wait for kalindor and other testers to play it a little bit more before drawing conclusions again.

Yup. I'm curious as well. Yesterday I tried him out in a full party, with plenty of range. This of course made him attack less (range rules in BG1), therefore, less hits - less Frenzy.

Otoh, I tried him out solo in BG1 for few levels. Gave him a 2-handed sword. It's a much different Berserker than a dual-wielding one. Those criticals with Rage+Frenzy pretty much mow down anything in a single hit.

Anyways, I don't think any major tweaks will be needed. Would like that save vs spells bonus, however. Perhaps moving save vs Death to Frenzy?

 

P.S.

Frenzy checks if there are valid targets to attack at the end of the round. If not, it ends. It's possible that it will only last 6 seconds (if nobody is in range, but I don't know what the range is).

[kreso]

I've played WizardSlayer a bit in medium armor.

My vote would be to return to leather. He seems to lack any real drawback this way. Sure, lack of Full Plate hurts, but medium actually allows for tanking much more than simple leather (which is vulnerable to missiles, regardless of enchantment).

Given the power this kit has, I'd say something has to go. Either armor or Grandmastery, I'd say armor.

[Kalindor]

Agree. Wizard Slayer is too good in medium armor. I feared that would be the case. I would preserve the grandmastery as it helps to kill wizards, whereas medium armor would be only a mild assistance in such a task.

[kreso]

.... I would preserve the grandmastery as it helps to kill wizards.

Bingo.

Speaking of Wizard Slayer, I've noticed something interesting, but I don't know if that happens in vanilla or only with SCS. If a mage is hit by Disruptive Strike, he doesn't attempt to cast until spell failure chance wears off. Only rarely.

Maybe DavidW could say something about this matter, could be something in his scripts.

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

I've played WizardSlayer a bit in medium armor.

My vote would be to return to leather. He seems to lack any real drawback this way. Sure, lack of Full Plate hurts, but medium actually allows for tanking much more than simple leather (which is vulnerable to missiles, regardless of enchantment).

Given the power this kit has, I'd say something has to go. Either armor or Grandmastery, I'd say armor.

Agree. Wizard Slayer is too good in medium armor. I feared that would be the case. I would preserve the grandmastery as it helps to kill wizards, whereas medium armor would be only a mild assistance in such a task.

Wow, generally I am the one trying to convince players that an "unwelcome" tweak such as this is necessary. Obviously I'm not against going back to how I originally designed them, but wasn't there a consensus that with light armors he was overall too vulnerable within BG1? I got the impression that he could not take part to real combat (unless used as an archer), and felt too much like a rogue.

 

My hope was for IR's revised armors to help us creating two kinds of WS (melee focused or ranged), and that IR's penalties to weapon speed and DEX could keep the lightly armored version appealing for ranged combat, without making medium armors automatically the better pick, was I wrong?

 

Speaking of Wizard Slayer, I've noticed something interesting, but I don't know if that happens in vanilla or only with SCS. If a mage is hit by Disruptive Strike, he doesn't attempt to cast until spell failure chance wears off. Only rarely.

Maybe DavidW could say something about this matter, could be something in his scripts.

David may have scripted them to not waste their spells if under a heavy % of spell failure. Might be worth checking.

 

 

Berserker

I tried him out solo in BG1 for few levels. Gave him a 2-handed sword. It's a much different Berserker than a dual-wielding one. Those criticals with Rage+Frenzy pretty much mow down anything in a single hit.

 

Anyways, I don't think any major tweaks will be needed. Would like that save vs spells bonus, however. Perhaps moving save vs Death to Frenzy?

I'll probably just drop improved saves vs. death (they are already great anyway), or eventually use it as an improvement at later levels. Frenzy has already become a powerhouse (+2 hit/dmg, +1 apr, mind shield), I would surely not improve it further.

 

Frenzy checks if there are valid targets to attack at the end of the round. If not, it ends. It's possible that it will only last 6 seconds (if nobody is in range, but I don't know what the range is).

I do remember Minsc working like that...if it's true it would be kinda great.

[kreso]

Wizard Slayer

Wow, generally I am the one trying to convince players that an "unwelcome" tweak such as this is necessary. Obviously I'm not against going back to how I originally designed them, but wasn't there a consensus that with light armors he was overall too vulnerable within BG1? I got the impression that he could not take part to real combat (unless used as an archer), and felt too much like a rogue.

He's vulnerable, but far from helpless. With light weapons, enemies usually don't even swing at him before they die. d10 HP dice is also nice protection.

I never noticed before playing this WS how effective a dagger is on highly-proficient fighter.

 

My hope was for IR's revised armors to help us creating two kinds of WS (melee focused or ranged), and that IR's penalties to weapon speed and DEX could keep the lightly armored version appealing for ranged combat, without making medium armors automatically the better pick, was I wrong?

The thing is, they co-exist in the same character. Mostly true for BG1, due to how mages are rare there. Therefore, one can equip medium armor for regular combat and un-equip when he wants to fight mages. Also, weapon speed factor for fast strikes only comes in play with "full prebuff" SCS option enabled on mages. Otherwise, mage will spend his first round buffing himself up with some protections, making even initative weapons like daggers/short swords redundant.

One can compromise, sacrificing some speed and choosing a more damaging weapon so WS can be more useful in combat; I chose crossbows (light crossbow of speed) and Long swords. He had most kills in the party in BG1...

 

Berserker

I do remember Minsc working like that...if it's true it would be kinda great.

It's even better, actually. Frenzy checks for targets only between enemies, not neutrals or frendlies (must have "red circle"). The only danger is when in combat - when Berserkers kills a target in Frenzy, he goes up to next. If the closest target is an ally, he'll attack him for full Frenzy duration or until one of them dies. The third option is to kill all enemies before Frenzy ends, ending it the following round.

This pretty much forces you to use really slow and heavy weapons on him. If he's wielding daggers, you'll see many neutrals die.

[Kalindor]

I did not have a problem with the Wizard Slayer's effectiveness in light armor. Early on, it was reminiscent of a Kensai in that he could not tank powerful foes, but that is the trade-off for mage-killing prowess.

[kreso]

I peaked into SCS scripts. It appears that for every spell mages check for this:

CheckStatLT(Myself,50,SPELLFAILUREMAGE)

meaning, if a mage is hit by a WizardSlayer he will not cast spells for the noted duration (3 rounds). Too powerful of an ability?