Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

As for +1 attack for Frenzy....it is per PnP, but he's also immune to Haste and Speed weapon properties within those rules, no?

Yep, that +1apr is not supposed to stack with any other apr bonus within PnP. Are you pointing it out as one more reason to drop it in favor of increased damage instead? If yes, I can very easily be persuaded.

[Kalindor]

I also vote for larger damage bonuses in lieu of attack speed bonuses as it would help differentiate the Berserker and Barbarian. I am not sure that the damage bonus wouldn't be better applied to Rage as opposed to only Frenzy, however.

[kreso]

As for +1 attack for Frenzy....it is per PnP, but he's also immune to Haste and Speed weapon properties within those rules, no?

Yep, that +1apr is not supposed to stack with any other apr bonus within PnP. Are you pointing it out as one more reason to drop it in favor of increased damage instead? If yes, I can very easily be persuaded.

Kind of ....this tweak would make only Barbarian suffer from Imp.haste nerf (and very little, since Cleave isn't that powerful in SoA.).

If you need another reason - here's one of tehnical nature:

His extra attack, depending on when in his combat round he enters Frenzy, can be made with a speed factor of 1 (or 0), regardless of his "encumberance level" - i.e. weapon size, speed factor penalty and armor. The game engine squeezes that attack into the current round, regardless of time left till the next one. If it's only 1 second left, the attack will immediately trigger. In game terms, this looks weird since you usually see chunking and no attack animation procures. It could be only noticable with heavy/medium weapons and IR, but it's there. I also wrote once that "sometimes he kills stuff so fast that animation doesn't even trigger" - apperantly this +1 apr is the reason.

 

I've been pondering about some other Berserker tweaks (I really want this kit to be playable in any given battle, moreover since I spent many hours playing him) and it comes down to several options - feel free to correct/add if I missed something:

 

1) keep current Frenzy with Berserk opcode - this would have to include significant buff to Frenzy itself. Even with it, I'm not sure if this is actually worth it, since you essentially loose out on many things - he has to be a lone frontliner, therefore you're limited in both weapon selection and party composition (range/mages/healers, but any melee class will suffer). This works flawlessly in most of BG1, but in BG2 fights are quite more chaotic. In addition, BG2 fights makes it harder to have 1 single melee character (which isn't actually a natural tank like Swashbucker, Barbarian or Blade, but more of hp/endurance tank/dps hybrid).

Frenzy's focus can be avoided by going invisible, but that's very weird and I don't like it. Moreover, it can make Bereserker target an even more fragile character.

 

2) keep Frenzy, make it "curable" when current target dies. If it's possible to do it at all. This would nerf both Frenzy as an offensive tool and Deathless Frenzy; therefore being a bad solution, unless when fighting high-hp monsters.

Your party and innocents would be safe.

Perhaps it could be made to actually work (activating back 5% on hit to Frenzy, tweaking Deathless Frenzy so that it triggers only when below 25/50 % HP, giving it a cooldown). Sounds complicated however. And if anything, I don't like things so complicated (vanilla Berserker is essentialy a "fire and forget" type, while this would be like:

"Hmmm....5% per hit, 5%when hit, add 15 when Frenzied, always when <25% Health unless it triggered 1 turn ago...what am I playing anyway?" )

 

3)Maybe it could be made that killing a target cures only Berserk part of Frenzy, and then re-applies it a second later. This would make the Berserker attack only enemies due to how Berserk opcode works (he always attacks an enemy first - this is why "when hit" works. After he kills him, then the troubles start).

Bad thing is - it's the Berserker who should kill the taget for it to have effect. Would work in BG1 I guess, but when ADHWs and the like start flying in BG2 hardly so. Another thing is how to make the re-applied Berserk state work only until the end of Frenzy.

If it could be done with "when target dies, no matter who killed it", and make Frenzy "cure" Berserk state when ending, it doesn't sound so bad I guess.

I have no idea how this would look like in game, however. And if it's doable in any way.

 

4) remove Berserk opcode alltogether. For balance reasons, he might be made immune to healing spells as well - at least you wouldn't run back to your cleric for healing.

Good points - we no longer have to worry about damn Berserk opcode. Closer to vanilla game.

Bad points - looses on flavour, can still run away from enemies. Makes the whole concept of "Frenzied" redundant.

 

5) make Berserk opcode last for a shorter amount of time, while Frenzy lasts 18 seconds. Again, far from perfect.

Maybe, just maybe, it could be made like - first round and a half (9 seconds) he's "warming up" - no potions etc., - psyching up for battle. Final 9 seconds he's uncontrolable (if the battle lasts for so long). These numbers, including the duration of Frenzy could be modified. It would make him more playable, even tough I'm not sure of how this would work, if at all. I can try, however.

Bad thing - complicated. Not much, but still.

 

6) make Frenzy curable at will. Don't know what to think about it, but it doesn't sound good.

 

7) Saving throw, as per PnP to snap out of Berserk state. Since many times you actually want to stay in that mode (considering immunities/bonuses) - bad. It would mean you have to micro rings/equipment/buffs to keep him frenzied when you want to, and balancing this out for BG1 and BG2 would be a nightmare, if at all possible.

 

P.S.

I haven't forgotten about Rangers and Archer - feedback will be ready tomorrow evening.

 

Edit

8) Berserker can't punch through invisibility/sanctuary. If this could be made of some use, it would be great. I have no idea if such a thing is possible (I suppose the effect shold be something like an on-hit effect, trigger only on party members, makes them invisible for less then a second).

[kreso]

I've been doing some tests.

More accurately, I tweaked Berserker a bit - Frenzy, to be more accurate.

+1 apr removed. Replaced with +4, +8 and +12 bonus melee damage at levels 1, 10 and 19

. Whole state lasts 24 seconds, activates on 10% "when hit" and 20% "on hit" when Enraged. Let's keep him crazy, and give BG1 players to see the full extent of this kit.

Divided into 2 "states", each lasts for 2 rounds. In the first state, Berserker is still able to move and drink potions. He gains immunities (Fear, Hold etc.), and penalties (AC, saves) but not extra damage. He's getting "worked up".

After those 2 rounds have passed, Berserker enters Berserk state - no save, but "consider yourself warned - either end the battle in 12 seconds or I'll go crazy" - becomes uncontrolable for the following 2 rounds, gains extra damage, keeps immunites and penalties.

Furthermore, I made Berserker unable to enter Frenzy for 2 rounds after it ended (no permanent frenzy/unkillable Berserker).

I even used different icons (the one used now and the one for Barbarian Rage, could not find one more appropriate but didn't matter for testing purposes) for those 2 states.

Overall, I'm very pleased with how this turned out, especially in BG2.

Any toughts on this?

I still wanted to keep the flavour of the kit (Frenzied Berserker) and keep him under Berserk state if possible in any way, yet I also wanted to have some more control over pre-buff routines and especially positioning/targeting. He still remains a danger to your own, but is much easier to keep him on enemies and the chance for him to go running after your own party member is much decreased. I given this a lot of tought (and read some more info on PnP sources) and somehow feel that the chance for him making a rampage through party needs to stay - there are numerous ways of dealing with him in that state (Grease,Maze, Otiluke's resilient sphere etc.)

He's much more user-friendly, tremendusly powerful in melee (Criticals are well over 70-80 damage with a decent STR score), far from imbalanced (at least SCS) and extremely fun.

All of these changed numbers could be tweaked a bit (24 sec duration changed to 30, states 15 seconds each etc. - I think this would be better actually)

Extra damage seems fine to me. Again, can be toned down to +3, +6, +9 (even if I'd like to keep Frenzy quite powerful in BG1. It does loose a lot of it's edge by removing +1 apr).

[Ardanis]

If it's only 1 second left, the attack will immediately trigger. In game terms, this looks weird since you usually see chunking and no attack animation procures. It could be only noticable with heavy/medium weapons and IR, but it's there. I also wrote once that "sometimes he kills stuff so fast that animation doesn't even trigger" - apperantly this +1 apr is the reason.

You know, the soundset for half-orc NPCs does include "RAAAHHHHR! You die! You die!" line

 

2) keep Frenzy, make it "curable" when current target dies. If it's possible to do it at all.

Very possible, see how barbarian's Cleave works - solution a bit more complex than usual, but it gets its job done.

 

If it could be done with "when target dies, no matter who killed it", and make Frenzy "cure" Berserk state when ending, it doesn't sound so bad I guess.

I have no idea how this would look like in game, however. And if it's doable in any way.

This not so possible, however.

 

Overall, I'm very pleased with how this turned out, especially in BG2.

Any toughts on this?

Looks like the winner to me.

[Kalindor]

+1 apr removed. Replaced with +4, +8 and +12 bonus melee damage at levels 1, 10 and 19

This sounds fine to me. It sounds large at fist but consider the damage being lost by losing an attack/round. You are also losing chances for weapon effects to trigger on the missing additional attack.

 

Whole state lasts 24 seconds, activates on 10% "when hit" and 20% "on hit" when Enraged. Let's keep him crazy, and give BG1 players to see the full extent of this kit.

This sounds fine to me as well.

 

Divided into 2 "states", each lasts for 2 rounds. In the first state, Berserker is still able to move and drink potions. He gains immunities (Fear, Hold etc.), and penalties (AC, saves) but not extra damage. He's getting "worked up".

I am confused here. You mention these bonuses for phase 1 of the frenzy. What, then, are the bonuses for just being Enraged?

 

In any case, I think the wind-up phase I should be decreased to one round, and the Frenzy phase 2 should be increased to three rounds. I think 6 seconds is plenty of time for a wind-up, and 18 seconds for Deathless Frenzy is about the duration I'd want.

 

Furthermore, I made Berserker unable to enter Frenzy for 2 rounds after it ended (no permanent frenzy/unkillable Berserker).

You could make this one round of immunity to Frenzy. That, combined with 6 seconds of wind-up time, would result in 12 seconds of vulnerability between immortality if he activated Frenzy as soon as possible. This sounds OK to me, but would need to be optimized with testing.

 

Extra damage seems fine to me. Again, can be toned down to +3, +6, +9

This will need to be tested.

 

Example numbers:

Four attacks inflicting 15 damage = 60 damage

Three attacks inflicting 24 damage (+9 bonus) = 72 damage

Three attacks inflicting 27 damage (+12 bonus) = 81 damage

You are also missing the opportunity for the extra attack to inflict stun/vorpal/etc. hits from your weapon.

[kreso]

+1 apr removed. Replaced with +4, +8 and +12 bonus melee damage at levels 1, 10 and 19

This sounds fine to me. It sounds large at fist but consider the damage being lost by losing an attack/round. You are also losing chances for weapon effects to trigger on the missing additional attack.

Let's say I want more balance in early levels, where Berserker is more powerful than 2 fighters combined.

 

 

Divided into 2 "states", each lasts for 2 rounds. In the first state, Berserker is still able to move and drink potions. He gains immunities (Fear, Hold etc.), and penalties (AC, saves) but not extra damage. He's getting "worked up".

I am confused here. You mention these bonuses for phase 1 of the frenzy. What, then, are the bonuses for just being Enraged?

I havn't touched Rage. Bonuses are the same: THAC0, HP, damage, etc.

 

In any case, I think the wind-up phase I should be decreased to one round, and the Frenzy phase 2 should be increased to three rounds. I think 6 seconds is plenty of time for a wind-up, and 18 seconds for Deathless Frenzy is about the duration I'd want.

I'm not sure. 2 rounds wind-up allow for accurate positioning (he needs to be in the thick of battle) and eventual pre-buff (1xinnate and 1xpotion). Could be tweaked, ofc. Consider this only a concept.

3 rounds without control is a long time. I'll try 15 sec (2 and a half rounds) next, to see how it goes.

 

Furthermore, I made Berserker unable to enter Frenzy for 2 rounds after it ended (no permanent frenzy/unkillable Berserker).

You could make this one round of immunity to Frenzy. That, combined with 6 seconds of wind-up time, would result in 12 seconds of vulnerability between immortality if he activated Frenzy as soon as possible. This sounds OK to me, but would need to be optimized with testing.

You're right. Nice catch.

 

Extra damage seems fine to me. Again, can be toned down to +3, +6, +9

This will need to be tested.

Yup.

Note, the Berserk opcode by itself adds +2 to damage rolls. So the total damage done is higher (4 bonus + 2 berserk on level 1, 8+2 on 10th, 12+2 on 19th)

 

You are also missing the opportunity for the extra attack to inflict stun/vorpal/etc. hits from your weapon.

True. Such "fine" tweaking is quite impossible I think.

I will tinker with it some more.

[Kalindor]

This is an interesting alternative implementation. We'll have to see what Demivrgvs thinks.

[kreso]

You could make this one round of immunity to Frenzy. That, combined with 6 seconds of wind-up time, would result in 12 seconds of vulnerability between immortality if he activated Frenzy as soon as possible. This sounds OK to me, but would need to be optimized with testing.

@Ardanis

I'm very willing to try this out. However, I ran into tehnical difficulties beyond my (rather limited) NI knowledge. I want to use delay/limited duration on Berserk effect.

However, I can't set the delay to 6 seconds and duration to 18. Do both the delay and duration have to end up being the same (i.e. 12 seconds for the effect to kick in, and lasts 12 seconds) or am I missing something?

Perhaps I could try assigning protection from opcode:Berserk for 6 seconds and see where it gets me....

[Grammarsalad]

You could make this one round of immunity to Frenzy. That, combined with 6 seconds of wind-up time, would result in 12 seconds of vulnerability between immortality if he activated Frenzy as soon as possible. This sounds OK to me, but would need to be optimized with testing.

@Ardanis

I'm very willing to try this out. However, I ran into tehnical difficulties beyond my (rather limited) NI knowledge. I want to use delay/limited duration on Berserk effect.

However, I can't set the delay to 6 seconds and duration to 18. Do both the delay and duration have to end up being the same (i.e. 12 seconds for the effect to kick in, and lasts 12 seconds) or am I missing something?

Perhaps I could try assigning protection from opcode:Berserk for 6 seconds and see where it gets me....

 

I've never used the delay timer, but I have an idea that might work. Its worth trying at least. Try opcode 177 (use eff file) set to target self with the delay timer of six seconds. Create the eff file with the protection from opcode for the desired duration.

[Ardanis]

However, I can't set the delay to 6 seconds and duration to 18. Do both the delay and duration have to end up being the same (i.e. 12 seconds for the effect to kick in, and lasts 12 seconds) or am I missing something?

As it happens, I had the very same problem not long ago. The duration field is use for both the delay and duration, unfortunately, and using EFF (177) doesn't work either, because it inherits parent source's parameters for timing mode and duration. A solution is to apply a full SPL (146) with a delay, and have it to use the desired duration.

[kreso]

So, the whole .spl (in this case, dvcl323a.spl) should be applied with a delay (now it's instant) , and within that .spl I can set durations for my liking? Heh. Then I guess I should create 1 additional .spl which is cast instantly (for entering "wind-up") and assign it to dvcl323d.

Still not sure what I should do with .eff which triggers Frenzy when Berserker hits something. I tought this would be much more simple .

[kreso]

Ok. I failed to tweak this to my liking, but no matter.

I did notice some very nice things with delaying berserk state from Frenzy - by itself, changing this makes Deathless Frenzy much better (given that once you go into Frenzy you'll want to fight anyway) since it ensures that it will be useful. Previous duration of 12/12 seconds is too short (even tough it makes berserker much more controlable). Kalindor recommended 18, yet I think this is too much and leaves quite a bit of "open space" in between levels 10-19 where Berserker will suffer too much from lack of control for so long and no minHP.

In short, I'd say duration 15/15 for wind up/full berserk is fine in BG2. One other tweak I wanted to try (can't get this to work unfortunately) is both 6/15 and 9/15. 9/15 duration could easilly be "perfect numbers" for BG1, where 15 seconds wind-up is indeed too long (many battles are far shorter, and thus full berserk is not likely to happen ).

As for "cooldown", making it so short as 2 rounds is a bit broken, imo. 3 or 4 is enough for appeal (it's almost a second life when minHP gets delayed duration) and not too much for Berserker to be almost unkillable.

All this is nice, but much unrefined. I don't know which effects would be more appropriate for these 2 states. Specifically, damage (I think immunities need to stay for full duration, if for nothing but for remaining more true to vanilla game).

I'll test something out tonight and see if automatic use of some kind of "improved" Offensive Stance (-2THAC0, +4damage at 1st/ -3THAC0 +8 damage 10th/-4THAC0 +12 damage 19th) could be an alternative to a simple +x to damage rolls. It would also make more use of Rage bonuses this way, at least no nullify THAC0 penalties.

One more tweak I had in mind (somewhere between 10th and 19th level) is that he gains Deathless Frenzy there, but instead of fighting, he drops on the ground unconcius for some time.

Anyhow, let's wait and see what Demivrgvs has to say about this and if the overall concept/idea is ok with him.

[Demivrgvs]

Sorry for taking so long to catch up.

 

First thing first, a general rule I try to follow as much as possible is to "keep things simple". I'm not fully convinced of the solution you guys are testing for the whole Berserking thing because it looks very overcomplicated: rage is a pre-frenzy state but frenzy has a pre-frenzy itself? If this solution really have some merits than we should strive to make it work in a much more simple way imo, something which can be described to a new player in an easily comprehensible way (e.g. removing Rage or "merging" it and Frenzy into a single ability - or something else which could simplify a little the overall process). Don't you agree the current behaviour is a real mess for anyone not familiar with it as a beta testers or coder?

 

When it comes to replace Frenzy's +1 apr with increased damage, I would probably opt for the "Improved/Supreme Offensive Stance auto-applied while frenzied". Not only it's closer to PnP Frenzied Berserker but it prevents the standard OS to stack with the new dmg bonuses (allowing the latter to make a difference by themselves), and as kreso says the thac0 penalty is a good way to make use of Rage's thac0 bonuses.

[kreso]

.

 

First thing first, a general rule I try to follow as much as possible is to "keep things simple".

I know....as I said several posts above, this solution is complicated.

 

I'm not fully convinced of the solution you guys are testing for the whole Berserking thing because it looks very overcomplicated: rage is a pre-frenzy state but frenzy has a pre-frenzy itself?

Yes. But just the out-of-control part of Frenzy. Something needs to change, yes.

 

If this solution really have some merits

It does. At least I am quite pleased with it.

 

than we should strive to make it work in a much more simple way

Couldn't agree more.

 

 

(e.g. removing Rage or "merging" it and Frenzy into a single ability - or something else which could simplify a little the overall process).

Yes. Any ideas about this?

 

Don't you agree the current behaviour is a real mess for anyone not familiar with it as a beta testers or coder?

It's a mess for me as well. It's only a concept, but it is a good one - it's a huge boost in survability for him. Those 12 seconds (this time should be shorter, btw) when you know he'll explode but remains under your control are invaluable.

 

When it comes to replace Frenzy's +1 apr with increased damage, I would probably opt for the "Improved/Supreme Offensive Stance auto-applied while frenzied". Not only it's closer to PnP Frenzied Berserker but it prevents the standard OS to stack with the new dmg bonuses (allowing the latter to make a difference by themselves), and as kreso says the thac0 penalty is a good way to make use of Rage's thac0 bonuses.

Yup. So, he could frenzy while in Rage (and suffer no THAC0 bonuses and no HP increase) and (unwillingly) go into frenzy in the midst of battle while loosing on added benefits of Rage? Cool.

Anyways, 1 more problem I see with this kit - once you fully release this mod - nobody will want to play anything else then a Berserker .