Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[yarpen]

Silly idea about an alternative for Offensive/Defensive Stance and Called Shots (I have to admit that I am not a fan).

 

- Once per day per 4 levels can use Combat Maneuvres. The repertoire of those combat tricks extends with level progression.

 

Power Attack: Next attack is done with +2 bonus to Damage Rolls and stuns for 1 round (save vs. wands negates).

At level 10, bonus is increased to +4 and attack knockbacks opponent.

 

Rapid Strike: Additional attack per round, -2 penalty to Attack Rolls. Lasts 4 rounds.

At level 10, there is no penalty to Attack Rolls.

 

Defensive Stance: +2 bonus to Armor Class, additional +2 bonus to AC vs. Missles. Moves at 50% of movement speed.

At level 10, bonus to AC increases by additional +2 and penalty to movement speed is reduced to 25%.

 

Rally the Allies: grants +1 bonus to Attack Rolls and Armor Class to all allies in 5' radius for next 4 rounds.

At level 10, bonuses increase to +2 and additionaly it grants immunity to fear.

 

Iron Will: gains +3 bonus to saves vs. Spells for next 3 rounds.

At level 10, becomes immune to Charm, Confusion, Sleep, Enthrall effects.

 

Death Blow: instantly kills target creature 25% HP or less.

At level 17, targets with 25% Hit Points are slayed without saving throw. Other creatures are slayed unless they will succeed save vs. death.

 

Hardiness: gains +20% resistance to physical damage for 2 rounds.

At level 17, grants also magic and energy damage resistances as well.

 

Precision Strike: next attack deals maximum damage to opponent hit.

At level 17, it is a critical strike.

 

Basically - mostly heavily nerfed Fighter's HLAs which actually fit as his vanilla abilities pretty damn well. And it gives you nice set of advantages/disadvantages for variety of kits. Wizard Slayer doesn't get Defensive Stance and Hardiness but gets Piercing Strike and Resistance (+20% Magic Resistance). Berserker can't use Defensive Stance, Rally the Allies and Precision Strike - but he can get other, sweet stuff.

 

And in terms of HLAs for Fighters, there are lots of ideas. Let's start with improved versions of those abilities.

[kreso]

Is it possible to have a frenzied berserker apply an on-hit effect, which triggers only when an ally is hit, which makes him (target hit) "untargetable by allies" for 1 second?

[Demivrgvs]

True Fighter

Silly idea about an alternative for Offensive/Defensive Stance and Called Shots (I have to admit that I am not a fan).

No offense but you are pretty much suggesting to give tons of very slightly nerfed HLAs to the True Fighter at level 4, and turn them into almost prefect copies of the current HLAs at level 10. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that giving certain HLAs at levels 10+ with the right adjustments would be both balanced and actually closer to AD&D, and to a certain extent KR already does that as all classes now get an appropriate HLA at level 15 (I'm thinking to maybe give 1-2 more, we'll see), but overall what you suggest imo is a less balanced system which gives way more power for free.

 

Like it or not, KR's Offensive/Defensive Stances are perfect copies of two of the most widely used PnP feats. I would not like them requiring x/day uses, nor granting free damage/AC boosts without any drawback.

 

Regarding Called Shots, what's there you don't like? Is it the name? Because conceptually and gameplay wise they are exactly Combat Maneuvers (Disarm, Trip, etc.).

 

P.S On a side note, Mind Shield as a Combat Maneuver makes no sense, and allowing each and every warrior to completely ignore the powers of a specialized Enchanter is kinda game-breaking imo. I know it's cool to think "oh yeah, my fighter is unstoppable", but the class needs some weaknesses, and low saves vs. mind affecting spells is one. If you want an anti-spellcaster warrior just pick a WS or Inquisitor, and if you want the unstoppable killing machine pick the Berserker as soon as I and kreso have finished messing with it.

 

Berserker

Is it possible to have a frenzied berserker apply an on-hit effect, which triggers only when an ally is hit, which makes him (target hit) "untargetable by allies" for 1 second?

I know what you are trying to achieve, but that would also lead to possible weird things like an allied caster unable to finish casting a spell on the party member because of this ProCreature effect. Furthermore, that effect would trigger after a successful attack, and afaik the Berserker doesn't attack allied creatures for more than a bunch of seconds when there's no enemy left on sight, am I wrong?

 

During a fight, a frenzied Berserker should always attack the nearest character (doesn't he?), thus make sure your allies are not near him, and Frenzy itself triggers on hit, thus the first target of his fury almost surely is an enemy. Does it happen so often to have the Berserker turn against you?

 

Also, making Frenzy trigger only while using OS should now allow a lot more control over the Berserker himself, doesn't it?

[yarpen]

No offense but you are pretty much suggesting to give tons of very slightly nerfed HLAs to the True Fighter at level 4, and turn them into almost prefect copies of the current HLAs at level 10. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that giving certain HLAs at levels 10+ with the right adjustments would be both balanced and actually closer to AD&D, and to a certain extent KR already does that as all classes now get an appropriate HLA at level 15 (I'm thinking to maybe give 1-2 more, we'll see), but overall what you suggest imo is a less balanced system which gives way more power for free.

Probably you got me a bit wrong. You get the ability of Combat Maneuvres once per day per 4 levels. It works just like your Kensai - so you can use one of those abilities once per day. Not all of them.

Most of Fighter's HLAs are a joke in BG2. Their power level feels pathetic. Wizards get Dragon's Breath, you get 1-round stun. WHEN YOU HIT YOUR OPPONENT AND HE CAN STILL MAKE A SAVE. Damn, people. Those abilities, slightly nerfed (they need some kind of minor penalties) can serve Fighter's well during his 1-20 levels as well.

 

Like it or not, KR's Offensive/Defensive Stances are perfect copies of two of the most widely used PnP feats. I would not like them requiring x/day uses, nor granting free damage/AC boosts without any drawback.

The issue for me is: these are cute, but don't have any real advantage with using them. I doubt it I will ever use any of these. And even to stretch my imaginations to extreme, they are cool only in situations when no abilities matter.

"I'm slaughtering xvart village, I don't need Attack Rolls (but I don't need Damage and Armor Class as well!)"

 

P.S On a side note, Mind Shield as a Combat Maneuver makes no sense, and allowing each and every warrior to completely ignore the powers of a specialized Enchanter is kinda game-breaking imo. I know it's cool to think "oh yeah, my fighter is unstoppable", but the class needs some weaknesses, and low saves vs. mind affecting spells is one. If you want an anti-spellcaster warrior just pick a WS or Inquisitor, and if you want the unstoppable killing machine pick the Berserker as soon as I and kreso have finished messing with it.

Yep, I also think that upgraded version makes too much stuff redunant. Still, I have no idea what it should be. Bigger save bonus is cheesy and dumb. Longer duration? It's already pretty damn long.

 

every warrior to completely ignore the powers of a specialized Enchanter is kinda game-breaking imo

It's not like everyone else casts Mirror Image-Stoneskin-Protection from Magical Weapons once every 5 rounds and laughs at me.

 

Regarding Called Shots, what's there you don't like? Is it the name? Because conceptually and gameplay wise they are exactly Combat Maneuvers (Disarm, Trip, etc.).

Name. It's CALLED SHOTS for Ao's sake. My bastard sword Fighter doesn't Shoot his opponent with his sword. And for sure he doesn't call it.

Aimed Strike?

[kreso]

Berserker

I know what you are trying to achieve, but that would also lead to possible weird things like an allied caster unable to finish casting a spell on the party member because of this ProCreature effect.

Bleh.

 

Also, making Frenzy trigger only while using OS should now allow a lot more control over the Berserker himself, doesn't it?

Yes...

What I do dislike is the discrepancy between what he should be (1vs1 anti-boss, big damage/hard to disable, balanced by AC/saves penelties, fatigue and control loss, or perhaps I am wrong - if yes, what do you want him to be?)

and what he turns out to be (someone who doesn't use Rage in hard battles since it gets him killed).

On-hit % frenzy is kind of meh. What happens is you can loose quite a bit of time (especially in BG1) before you actually hit something. Next thing you know, you're both fatigued and frenzied. Rest assured, he dies the following round. That's not something I really like.

Other option is you hit something, it dies, and he's running after his pal for 18 seconds - so you loose 2 characters from battle, one chasing another who runs away. That's a bad scenario, but it does happen, and tends to be gamebreaking.

The problem in BG2 is of different nature - immunities last too short, and battles tend to be filled with summons of all allegiances - both yours and enemies'. That's one big chaos and berserker easilly targets some otherwise useless enemy like a hard to kill Skeleton Warrior and he's practically out of the battle for the next 10 seconds, while suffering all the bad effects of frenzy.

 

One thing I want to try is implement frenzy after Rage is over, instead of fatigue, which would in turn trigger after frenzy is over. That way, you'd have a window of safety (this is so needed) equal to Rage duration, wherein berserker is free to do his work unmolested by enchantments (immunites implemented back to Rage, have him own those damn enhancement using mages!). When that is over, he's bloodied up for a full frenzy, where he looses control and gains double the benefits of Rage (if Rage gives +2 damage, frenzy would give +4) and double the drawbacks (-2 AC becomes -4 AC penalty). I can makes such changes myself, if you're fine with the idea we can balance it out further easilly with playtesting.

As for OS, I'd prefer to make frenzy trigger 100% of time (or automatically upon using OS), rather then being a 10% chance.

Second, I'd remove -2THAC0 penalty (let's give this more appeal in BG1).

It would make it easier to use if one knew when exactly frenzy would trigger, rather than relying on chances, which differ from playstyle - 2 weapons have you berserking twice as often, even more if they're fast like short swords, whereas a halberd user will very rarely go berserk in BG1.

With this tweaks, you'd end up having a fighter who sacrifices AC for damage, and immunites for a "controllable loss of control".

[Kalindor]

I like the idea of OS leading to a surefire Frenzy as kreso suggested because it lets you summon the immunities as needed as well as the 1hp minimum if the situation is bad. I have not had the experience that kreso has had in testing this kit, but here is one possible implementation:

-Remove fatigue effect from the kit entirely.

-Give a small 5% chance to enter a Frenzy normally, even when not using Rage or OS.

-Rage has a +30% percent chance to enter a Frenzy on hit. Offensive Stance has an additional +30% chance.

-Remove cooldown time from Frenzy.

-(Optional) -2 AC penalty due to unrestrained fighting style.

 

This would allow the Berserker to have a good chance to start a Frenzy when he needs it. He would also be able to chain Frenzy together, resulting in extended 1HP min and immunity duration. I do not think this would be overpowered as, once Rage wears off, the chance of Frenzy drops precipitously and a low HP Berserker is going down the instant the Frenzy subsides. Also, do not underestimate the negative aspects of loss of control. The lack of control should be enough to balance the kit even without any fatigue effect. I think this would also differentiate the Barbarian's rage a little more since he would not lose control but would have fatigue.

[Ardanis]

Most of Fighter's HLAs are a joke in BG2. Their power level feels pathetic. Wizards get Dragon's Breath, you get 1-round stun. WHEN YOU HIT YOUR OPPONENT AND HE CAN STILL MAKE A SAVE. Damn, people. Those abilities, slightly nerfed (they need some kind of minor penalties) can serve Fighter's well during his 1-20 levels as well.

You can't be serious... ToB is ruled by fighters dishing out 100+ damage each round, not spellcasters with limited spell slot supply. Fighter HLAs are just the icing on cake, GWW being outright broken in terms of balance.

 

Name. It's CALLED SHOTS for Ao's sake. My bastard sword Fighter doesn't Shoot his opponent with his sword. And for sure he doesn't call it.

 

 

 

 

Sure he does

[yarpen]

I agree that GWW is broken, same as the Critical and Stunning combo and Hardiness. But other abilities suck terriblyo. Nerf the op shit, give me a possibility to choose. As Fighter I tend to ignore nearly all HLAs except of GWW.

 

Btw, Silly question.

Is there a possibility of having for example:

Whirlwind HLA

and then another HLA that upgrades all the already taken Whirlwinds into Improved Whirlwind?

Is there any issue with that from technical side.

[Ardanis]

Btw, Silly question.

Is there a possibility of having for example:

Whirlwind HLA

and then another HLA that upgrades all the already taken Whirlwinds into Improved Whirlwind?

Is there any issue with that from technical side.

Yes.

[Demivrgvs]

True Fighter

@yarpen, Called Shot is the original PnP name, I did not invented it, and I also took advantage of the pre-exisitng bams and portrait icon for Archer's CS. What about renaming Fighter's CS into Called Hit and keep Called Shot for Archer's almost identical but ranged-only ability? Fighter's version would still display 'Called Shot' if you look at the character screen (where portrait icons display their names), but that would be a minor inconsistency I guess.

 

On a side note, I think ToBEx/BGEE now allows more room for eventually adding new portrait icons, but even if that is true (I'm not 100% sure) I would not rely on it as long as we don't strictly need it. Not to mention I would need Pacek or some other willing designer to create those bams, and even then I would give the priority to all the other more important bams for SR's new spells or KR's main abilities.

 

Berserker

Oook, I do said I already had a plan B, and even a plan C and D for that matter.

 

If you guys think that it would be better to have an almost 100% chance to go Frenzy (to take advantage of its immunities) I would not tie it to OS but instead to Rage, exponentially raising the % chance to trigger it while enraged. I also thought about making it automatically trigger when enraging, but that's a bit more problematic in terms of handling its duration, and in case we want to keep some form of Frenzy when not enraging (consider this the plan C ).

 

One thing I did not see reported but which might be a problem imo, is that to avoid the old +1apr or the current +x damage from stacking, and to avoid permanent Deathless Frenzy, the current Frenzy "does not stack" and thus even assuming a 100% chance on each hit to enter a frenzy there would still be the possibility of a short time when the Berserker is not frenzied between one activation and the following one (I hope I managed to explain myself). I think we can improve this situation by doing two things:

a) move the +x dmg and -2 AC from Frenzy to Offensive Stance (similarly to PnP Reckless Offensive feat)

b) make Rage's fatigue effect grants immunity to Frenzy

This way we don't have stacking effects within Frenzy itself (unless the hardcoded +2 thac0/dmg of berserk opcode stack, but it shouldn't), and Frenzy still matters because we have moved there all the mind-affecting immunities (which really makes sense imo), and we don't run the risk of a permanent Deathless Frenzy because the fatigue effect puts a limit to it (note that Frenzy might still last 1-2 rounds while the Berserker is fatigued, it simply cannot re-trigger).

 

What do you think? Worth a try isn't it?

 

What I do dislike is the discrepancy between what he should be (1vs1 anti-boss, big damage/hard to disable, balanced by AC/saves penelties, fatigue and control loss, or perhaps I am wrong - if yes, what do you want him to be?)

I'm not sure the 1vs.1 situation should be Berserker's realm, perhaps I'm wrong but shouldn't that be Kensai's role as long as no magic is involved?

 

Other than that you got it right, the role of the Berserker should be a sort of unstoppable but uncontrollable and self-destructive, killing machine. Brought to the extremes, the effects of an enraged and frenzied Berserker on the battlefield should be similar to those of a nuclear bomb - no survivors, not even himself.

 

and what he turns out to be (someone who doesn't use Rage in hard battles since it gets him killed).

Well, having the Berserker almost always in a "near death" situation is kinda roleplaying, isn't it? Jokes aside, what we need to achieve is making sure the Berserker is able to survive more of those encounters (via increased hp and/or regeneration) and eventually "die" after the fight ends (stunning damage after Frenzy?). It must be said though, that balancing this class is obviously terrible to do because of its very concept. On one side we need the Berserker to be an almost unstoppable death machine, otoh we need it to still be balanced and not a "I win button".

[kreso]

From my experience, I'd rather tie frenzy to a "timer" of sorts, so it happens after a set amount of time after Rage is used. He's unpredictable as it is (mind you, I have zero intention of playing him in a "normal state of mind" , that's like I'm playing a vanilla fighter unless it's a gamebreaking situation like neutral NPCs involved) and one thing I dislike about % chances is that it's linked to apr or being able to hit an enemy.

I tweaked him yesterday so that (and played up to level 6) :

 

Rage

- has immunites just as frenzy (you'll probably dislike that, but I find it simply neccecary, almost crucial for more than one reason. I know it makes sense that immunites are granted only via frenzy - it' just that the net effect is that he blows )

- hp increase as now, but this could be a feat of Frenzy instead

-saves, THAC0, AC, as now

-lasts shorter - 18/24/30 seconds at levels 1, 10, 19

-after the duration expires, he blasts into Frenzy for 24 seconds

-when Frenzy is over, he is fatigued (this makes sense imo). While fatigued, he cannot use OS nor Rage. That's a window of opportunity to kill him him at high levels (apart PW:Kill).

 

 

Offensive Stance

Lasts for 12 seconds, first succesful hit on an enemy makes him frenzied immediately. It has no other effects such a THAC0/AC penalty or damage bonuses.

After usage, Offensive Stance cannot be re-used for 60 seconds, and berserker suffers from fatigue for 30 seconds.

 

Frenzy

24 seconds, damage increase of 2/4/6 in addition to +2 from berserk effect. Immunities, loss of control, same as now apart duration is 24 seconds. AC and breath saves are both penalized by 4 points.

 

To make frenzied fighting more appealing, I've placed Diehard feat here (at present levels -11, 14, 17) as well - he can only regenerate while frenzied (and Deathless frenzy seems like a natural upgrade of that feat), no need to get him below 50% (btw, this trigger is also viable only for low-damage enemies, in ToB he might die before regen triggers due to massive damage taken).

 

 

Reasons - the duration where you can control him while immune to disables is needed. It's either that, or what you end up having is a berserker which spends half his time disabled. He does rush into battle, no? I hate wasting items such as Greenstone Amulet on a berserker to ensure he's viable, when he should have these immunites anyway, not by a twist of fate/dice.

Second, it also favours enemy berserkers much more, since they have no access to Chaotic Commands and similar effects.

Third, he's penalized just by using Rage enough as it is - he's very likely to suffer full blows from damaging spells, AC penalty hurts as well. Frenzy following is just icing on the cake - in combat, what happens is :you see chuncks splattered around, enemies fried from fireballs, your berserker is down to 20 HP and he goes on a rampage in between the survivors .

Positioning him well is of crucial importance, but this can be achieved only if he's both controlable and immune.

He's very unlikely to get disabled - and is still very likely to get killed as well. Kind of a fair trade-off.

Unfortunately, my berserker has to be the survivor since he's CHarname .

[Kalindor]

I prefer Demi's suggestion of a high chance of Frenzy on hit while in a Raged state.

 

I support the idea of tying the immunities to Rage instead of Frenzy provided that we go with the on-hit Frenzy chance. This would let the Berserker get into combat unimpeded.

 

I still think that a fatigue effect is not needed for this class due to loss of control, but if you think it's necessary then I am fine with that.

 

I also think that Deathless Frenzy is not going to be unbalanced even without fatigue as the chance of entering a Frenzy drops hugely when the Rage expires. Therefore, at most you will have 1HP minimum during the duration of the Rage but not afterward.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

From my experience, I'd rather tie frenzy to a "timer" of sorts, so it happens after a set amount of time after Rage is used.

I prefer Demi's suggestion of a high chance of Frenzy on hit while in a Raged state.

I'm actually fine with both solutions, but what I don't like is how kreso implemented the former. Making Frenzy trigger automatically after Rage ends makes no sense imo, it has to be during Rage (either right away or after 1-2 rounds) not after it.

 

Each solution has its pros and cons:

- making it trigger on-hit makes sure you can decide the first target of Berseker's fury

- making it trigger automatically makes sure you don't need to hit anything to enter a frenzy (but why would he go on a frenzy when he is not actually fighting anyone?) and take advantage of its immunities

 

I support the idea of tying the immunities to Rage instead of Frenzy provided that we go with the on-hit Frenzy chance. This would let the Berserker get into combat unimpeded.

There's one thing I don't get, the way you guys put it makes it sounds like not having immunities on the 1st round makes the Berserker almost always disabled before he even manages to hit someone, but if that is true than what about all other warriors?!? Is everyone in the party always disabled as soon as the fight starts? o.O

 

Btw, I was keeping it as an idea for an HLA, but one thing I wanted to suggest was making Frenzy "cure" disabling effects again, and make it trigger via cast spell on condition (helpless), but I need to test which effects set the state helpless (IESDP stats sleep, hold, web, but what about confusion and feeblemind?).

 

I still think that a fatigue effect is not needed for this class due to loss of control, but if you think it's necessary then I am fine with that.

Well, it has always been there, and conceptually it's a must imo. It also has quite a few balance purposes, such as making sure that the Berserker has a "moment of weakness", because else it would always be either on par or superior to a True Fighter.

 

I also think that Deathless Frenzy is not going to be unbalanced even without fatigue as the chance of entering a Frenzy drops hugely when the Rage expires. Therefore, at most you will have 1HP minimum during the duration of the Rage but not afterward.

If you remove the fatigue effect you can re-activate Rage the instant the previous one has ended, creating a semi-permanent Rage.

[kreso]

Berserker

Making Frenzy trigger automatically after Rage ends makes no sense imo, it has to be during Rage (either right away or after 1-2 rounds) not after it.

From a gameplay point of view, it is during Rage (it happens once you use Rage, it has the same bonuses, apart THAC0 and HP, and damage&AC bonus/penalty are effectively doubled). Immunites are the same. I even nerfed the "Rage" duration to even it out a bit.

I could easily implement the missing bonuses (HP etc.) to Frenzy. Without knowing the technicalities, one can envision frenzy as an extension of Rage. And just call it Berserker Rage alltogether.

It's the same as what you say "after 1-2 rounds", I made it after 3-4-5 but numbers are the easiest thing to change.

Probably, a more simple solution would be to keep the Rage duration intact, and make him Frenzy somewhere within that time (it would mean a lot less of copy/paste work).

I suggested that few months ago, and succeeded in making him frenzied after half the Rage duration expired.

 

Each solution has its pros and cons:

- making it trigger on-hit makes sure you can decide the first target of Berseker's fury

Unfortunately, it doesn't. Berserker completely "resets" the moment berserk opcode kicks in. He does prefer "nearest" target, but what game considers as "nearest" is far away from metric logic.

Also, it's not like mages are sitting ducks waiting for you to come melee with SCS, they move away. I'm playing without MS reduction from IR armors, and things would be much worse for him if I installed that part - what would happen if you choose to focus a mage is ring-a-ring-a-rosie for 18 seconds since you'd never catch him. Things can get much worse - if a mage, cleric or thief go invisible (and they do often) - you're officialy screwed. Mage will appear the next round and start casting, while berserker will be chasing God-knows-what.

The fact that you can't use potions is simply strawberry gravy on top .

 

making it trigger automatically makes sure you don't need to hit anything to enter a frenzy (but why would he go on a frenzy when he is not actually fighting anyone?) and take advantage of its immunities

This can be changed easilly - instead of "cast spell - frenzy" it would be "cast spell-cast spell on condition-enemy sighted-frenzy". It just needs one extra .spl file.

 

There's one thing I don't get, the way you guys put it makes it sounds like not having immunities on the 1st round makes the Berserker almost always disabled before he even manages to hit someone, but if that is true than what about all other warriors?!? Is everyone in the party always disabled as soon as the fight starts? o.O

For me, the whole shebang about berserker is the fact that he can't be disabled easilly. This allows you to create a fighter which doesn't need Lirarcor, Helm of Charm protection and similar equipment. It allows you to keep somebody operational once your level 1 party succubs to Sleep.

It allows you to focus completely on purely offensive weapons. Without those immunities, you're forced to either keep him under protective spells or have him equipped with equipment which provides similar protections.

That be the case, a True Fighter is essentially twice as good as a berserker - he easilly matches half his bonus (when frenzied, which can be completely wasted) damage with OS, he's fully controlable, and he's got versitality.

I'm at ease to place an item such as Greenstone Amulet on a fighter so he doesn't get disabled as soon as the first spell comes in, but it breaks my heart placing it on a berserker so he can do his work.

Basically, if one is forced to protect the Berserker from mind-affecting spells, why does one need those immunites in the first place?

 

]Well, it has always been there, and conceptually it's a must imo. It also has quite a few balance purposes, such as making sure that the Berserker has a "moment of weakness", because else it would always be either on par or superior to a True Fighter.

Imo, he can't be superior to a true class fighter by any means unless you implement a permanent Deathless Frenzy . One has a no-save disable, the other doesn't.

Fatigue needs to stay, however. Reasons both conceptual and game-wise.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Berserker

I'm actually fine with both solutions, but what I don't like is how kreso implemented the former. Making Frenzy trigger automatically after Rage ends makes no sense imo, it has to be during Rage ...

Well depending on the situation and what bonuses the two give !!! , it can be very or not at all natural:

If it's only a buff, then it can't trigger after, if it's a nerf, it can be very much after.

As in, if it's a nerf, it shouldn't trigger during, it should be after.

 

So one example: If the rage provides the immunities, and some fighting bonuses while being short duration ability, after coming a longer frenzy state that could remove either, and the ability to rage... say it turns to fearless frenzy(without the immunities) or frenzied mind(no fighting bonuses, but the immunities)... it could very well trigger after ... you might also loose the character control during the battle when the berserker takes damage and is in either of the frenzy states, but not during the rage. And this could balance the ability... and the fatigue could after either frenzy.