Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Jarno Mikkola]

*Edit: Also, no hurry on the HLAs...

Yeah, considering the revised kit classes have usually faster than the the paladin XP table, the level won't be a huge problem, but for Druids it becomes... see the note I made while ago in the XP table thread.

 

This:

PS, the lunumab.2da needs to be set to 18 on all the single classes.

[kreso]

I am fine with this idea.

Great. Now let's hope Demi finds some time to make us a new Berserker soon .

 

kreso mentioned that he thinks the Kensai is too vulnerable

He is vulnerable, and making him vulnerable to criticals will make him die in 3 or 4 hits in ToB, yes. Then again, with his extended Ki Strike destruction I somehow think he'll do fine.

I'll test him out tomorrow in ToB with no headslot item, to see just how it will go.

Altough, if enemies will loose out on critical hit protection as well it seems only fair that your party lacks this protection as well. Will know more tomorrow.

 

and the Berserker doesn't do enough damage at high levels. With the possibilities of enhancing kits via HLAs, we don't have to worry too much about adding kit features to correct late-game power deficits, if those do exist.

I wouldn't say "he doesn't do enough damage"...I'd say he simply doesn't scale in levels as well as others do. He's begins as the best fighter kit in BG1 (nothing rivals him at levels 1-7 imo, only Barbarian to an extent, and in vastly different scenarios) but looses his edge soon when the battles become harder.

I think Berserker preforms decently enough when Deathless Frenzy comes online, it gives him that much needed survability. It's SoA where he struggles.

 

@ Kalindor

Have you tried out Barbarian? I played with him today up to Candlekeep tombs. I had 3 reloads in whole game, and only 1 death. This kit is incredible in BG1. Talking about number of attacks, he easilly stacks up to 5 non-hasted, while wielding a big 2-handed sword. He made those "you have been waylaid by blah blah....." encounters such a breeze. Proud to say, mine scored 68% of party kills (Viconia, Edwin, Coran, Jaheira and Khalid were his competition). I doubt even a Berserker could kill as much.

his biggest weakness seems to be his poor THAC0 while enraged compared to other kits (makes his Rage quite unusable prior to 4th level or so) along with the fact that he depends greatly on cleave to hurt stuff.

[Kalindor]

Yes the Barbarian has performed well for me in BG1. I played through BG:EE up until the fight with Sarevok's acolytes at the Iron Throne HQ and have no complaints. The THAC0 penalty from rage is not amusing, though. I'm sure it is not as useful at high levels, but in BG1 it can be annoying. I think it is conceptually fine though as it weakens him against heavily armored fighters, which the Barbarian seems like it should not be great against anyhow.

 

I did not have a Berserker in the same game, so I cannot compare directly, but the Berserker seems a bit more powerful in BG1 in my hands.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

I am fine with this idea.

Great. Now let's hope Demi finds some time to make us a new Berserker soon

I'll finish BGEE items items today, but if I finish it quickly, or need a break from it, providing you a slightly tweaked Berserker would be very fast. Either today around dinner or no later than tomorrow you'll have it.

[kreso]

I did not have a Berserker in the same game, so I cannot compare directly, but the Berserker seems a bit more powerful in BG1 in my hands.

I'd say that up until level 7 Berserker is generally better. Am not so sure after 7. Probably Berserker since his THAC0 can hit mages under imp.invisibility and has immunity to Confusion while Frenzied.

On a sidenote, there is a battle in SCS (a quest given by some female Paladin north of Gnoll Stronghold) vs a ton of gibberlings- SCS modified this so you're attacked by about 65 of them. I put my Barbarian solo there... Reminded my of old Starcraft Zergling battles.

 

Berserker

I'll finish BGEE items items today, but if I finish it quickly, or need a break from it, providing you a slightly tweaked Berserker would be very fast. Either today around dinner or no later than tomorrow you'll have it.

:) Great news.

[kreso]

I tested up Kensai with no protection from critical hits. SCS fighters use Smite, CS, GWW, Hardiness and Rages. He dies in no more than 3 hits if someone uses Critical on him. I fear some kind of protection might indeed be neccecary. Is it perhaps possible to assign "critical hit protection" to a weapon? Say, Yamato for example ("the Defender"). Note that I tried this without Hardiness. With it, he would die in 4 or 5 hits, basically a round or less, and his AC offers no protection.

Another option vs those SCS beefed fighters is to smack them down via 3XADHW Chain Contingency of course .

[lynx]

You can assign it to any item with tobex, as it is just a new item flags bit — the same you use to disable head slot items to provide protection by default.

[kreso]

I tested some more. The question which arises is "how much should kensai be effective". When faced up against mobs with HLA's he dies almost instantly, criticals doing around 50 damage.

Even without a helmet slot, he seems very decent when faced against a lower number of oponnents or a single tough boss-type, where he can use his big damage unmolested.

Having somebody else to tank the initial onslaught (high-level Berserker or Barbarian would fit the bill) is a very valid option. SCS doesn't seem to "detect" if a target will take double damage from criticals, and aren't inclined to use it just because it would kill someone faster, they generally swarm the closest and bang up on him.

I would give Kensai a powerful defensive tool at high levels, but I'm not sure wether 1 round AI or giving weapons critical hit immunity is the answer.

 

EDIT:

Maybe, giving him an ability (would last 2 rounds, with Extended KI) to buff his physical resistance for a short time. Ki Shield?

Adds 40% to physical damage resistance, stacks with Hardiness, up to 60%. It would make those criticals (AC is irrelevant here, so I think we could indeed drop the idea of +x to AC) hurt as regular hits.

[Demivrgvs]

Kensai

Regarding critical hits immunity the plan was to make it very hard to obtain, because giving too many ways to regain such immunity would defeat the whole purpose of the tweak: making criticals a real factor during battles, both for AI and players. Heavy armored characters should have more chances to get it imo (e.g. Enkidu's Full Plate was the first item I had in mind), but I'm fine using it for a couple of other items as long as we use it to create valuable alternatives to what most players consider "the obvious picks" (e.g. a Battlemage Robe with such feat might start to finally rival the Robe of Vecna for a "close quarter" mage imo).

 

When it comes to the Kensai, I'd prefer him to keep such vulnerability because it fits the fact he fights unarmored. Giving him an ability to temporary counter Critical Strike HLA (which is not a single critical hit but an almost death sentence for our Kensai) is fine imo because it forces players to keep an eye on this matter and make tactical decisions (e.g. should I use Ki Strike as often as possible or wait to keep Ki Dodge available?), instead of relying on a permanent item to do all the job for him.

 

If we agree on that, I'd add that the way I see it, a Kensai either parry or dodge incoming attacks, but he is not a tank, and when struck he shouldn't be able to withstand damage as the other fighters. That's why I was suggesting that 1-round of "immunity from weapons" (to simulate the perfect parry, or the pinnacle of Combat Expertise feat) rather than a Hardiness-like ability which would suit best characters like the True Fighter or the Barbarian.

[kreso]

Kensai

Regarding critical hits immunity the plan was to make it very hard to obtain

Good.

 

When it comes to the Kensai, I'd prefer him to keep such vulnerability

Ok.

 

Giving him an ability to temporary counter Critical Strike HLA (which is not a single critical hit but an almost death sentence for our Kensai)

It comes down to positioning/micromanagement I guess...otoh, I'm afaraid what Abazigal in his human form might do to a character not protected from criticals, given his insane damage (this could be approx 80 damage on a critical, if not more). Ditto Fallen Solar and the like in Ascension.

 

If we agree on that, I'd add that the way I see it, a Kensai either parry or dodge incoming attacks, but he is not a tank, and when struck he shouldn't be able to withstand damage as the other fighters. That's why I was suggesting that 1-round of "immunity from weapons" (to simulate the perfect parry, or the pinnacle of Combat Expertise feat) rather than a Hardiness.like ability which would suit best characters like the True Fighter or the Barbarian.

Then go with this. We'll see how it goes. Altough, there are other melee classes (Monks, Rangers, Swashbucklers) which are suited for front-line battle and will suffer greatly due to lack of critical hit protection. Hopefully you have at least Swashes covered in your plans for new IR .

[kreso]

I've played Berserker for a few hours, now is level 5.

overall I like the change to "when hit". Makes him quite more reliable in early BG1, can't say how will this preform in BG2 yet. 5% chance seem small at first glance, but when surrounded, Frenzy is quite prone to happening. 10% would be far too much. So far, so good - he can't tank numerous oponnents as good as before, has kept a degeree of "unreliability" and is still very powerful.

Now, I've noticed few things I'd like to be changed about him. It may be early to judge, but:

1) he starts inducing Fear at level 5 when enraged. Due to his new "Frenzy when hit" I'd prefer if this was save vs spell or suffer -2 damage, rather than -2THAC0.

Also, this skill (Intimidating Rage) scales poorly and my screen gets overflown with "save vs spell" messages, especially at higher levels. Some kind of improvement (I wouldn't object implementing this as a no-save in late SoA and ToB) would be nice.

2) when he gets disabled, he's still prone to going into Frenzy when hit (example:faling a save vs Hold). Is it possible/acceptable that Frenzy triggering "purifies" him of such effects as Confusion, Fear and Hold? I'd still keep his vulnerability to Web, Entangle - i.e.reflex saves.

 

EDIT:

On a sidenote, I'm very pleased to say that SCS Bandit camp battle is proving to be quite hard with him. He has very little trouble dispatching boss-types 1vs1 (Taugh Kozhan and the like) yet that horde of archers seem to obliterate him. Nice. His new Frenzy makes him also unable to run from arrows, which is cool.

As for Frenzy behaviour - I have more good news - he seems to attack his last attacker when first he enters Frenzy, at least for now - both makes sense, both makes his own party safer.

So far, great change.

 

P.S.

I have finished the battle. Berserker was Frenzied for more than half of time, and had to use that potion with +20 resistance to damage and 1 Regeneration to keep him alive, but it was well worth of it. Even tough he was fighting very close to Minsc (Barbarian) he not once attacked him, somehow that Berserk opcode he uses seems to have a hatred toward ranged oponnents.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

I've played Berserker for a few hours, now is level 5.

overall I like the change to "when hit". Makes him quite more reliable in early BG1, can't say how will this preform in BG2 yet. 5% chance seem small at first glance, but when surrounded, Frenzy is quite prone to happening. 10% would be far too much. So far, so good - he can't tank numerous oponnents as good as before, has kept a degeree of "unreliability" and is still very powerful.

...

On a sidenote, I'm very pleased to say that SCS Bandit camp battle is proving to be quite hard with him. He has very little trouble dispatching boss-types 1vs1 (Taugh Kozhan and the like) yet that horde of archers seem to obliterate him. Nice. His new Frenzy makes him also unable to run from arrows, which is cool.

As for Frenzy behaviour - I have more good news - he seems to attack his last attacker when first he enters Frenzy, at least for now - both makes sense, both makes his own party safer.

So far, great change.

Cool! Great news.

 

Now, I've noticed few things I'd like to be changed about him. It may be early to judge, but:

1) he starts inducing Fear at level 5 when enraged. Due to his new "Frenzy when hit" I'd prefer if this was save vs spell or suffer -2 damage, rather than -2THAC0.

Also, this skill (Intimidating Rage) scales poorly and my screen gets overflown with "save vs spell" messages, especially at higher levels. Some kind of improvement (I wouldn't object implementing this as a no-save in late SoA and ToB) would be nice.

2) when he gets disabled, he's still prone to going into Frenzy when hit (example:faling a save vs Hold). Is it possible/acceptable that Frenzy triggering "purifies" him of such effects as Confusion, Fear and Hold? I'd still keep his vulnerability to Web, Entangle - i.e.reflex saves.

1a) Well, considering that while enraged the Berserker will enter a frenzy anyway by attacking I don't see this as a problem. PnP shaken condition causes -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, but I've removed the save penalty for balance purposes (it would make Intimidating Rage really too much powerful imo). Furthermore, reduced damage starts to sound like a Barbarian thing, no?

1b) fine with me, I do had in mind to make Intimidating Rage scale somehow sooner or later. Within PnP the only "upgrade" to it is the epic feat, Terrifying Rage, but as mentioned countless times for similar things, I'm not sure we want critters to panic and flee away from our heavy armored enraged Berserker. Not allowing a save (maybe only if opponent's HD is higher than x?) or adding a penalty to it would be fine imo.

2) This sounds nice and it makes sense, fine with me. Ironically the only mind-affecting effect I cannot "cure" with normal methods is charm, and it's the only effect which should not be cured.

[kreso]

Berserker

1a) Well, considering that while enraged the Berserker will enter a frenzy anyway by attacking I don't see this as a problem.

It isn't a problem per se, just a little something which I think would scale better (mine now wears Full Plate for total -2 AC. This may work as a defensive tool in BG1, but won't later on.) Later enemies will pummel him merceleslly regardless of wether they make or fail their save.

 

PnP shaken condition causes -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, but I've removed the save penalty for balance purposes (it would make Intimidating Rage really too much powerful imo).

Agreed.

 

Furthermore, reduced damage starts to sound like a Barbarian thing, no?

Well, you said yourself this is a Barbarian kit in PnP. Of course, Barbarian would still scale better (20% is always 20%; it can decrease substantial amounts of damage, while -2 damage may be as little as 5%, especially later). Just a suggestion which came to my mind.

 

1b) fine with me, I do had in mind to make Intimidating Rage scale somehow sooner or later.

Exellent.

 

Within PnP the only "upgrade" to it is the epic feat, Terrifying Rage, but as mentioned countless times for similar things, I'm not sure we want critters to panic and flee away from our heavy armored enraged Berserker.

I'd personaly hate it. Oponnents armed with bows in SCS and mages as well tend to run away from melee as it is, I hate that scattering, moreover since my Berserker uses heavy weaponry and full-plate and strikes veeery slowly (it doesn't stop him from having 55% of total party kills )

 

Not allowing a save (maybe only if opponent's HD is higher than x?) or adding a penalty to it would be fine imo.

Both of these sound good.

Maybe scalable 2 times, at level x(14 maybe?) it depends on oponnents HD, no save as HLA?

 

2) This sounds nice and it makes sense, fine with me. Ironically the only mind-affecting effect I cannot "cure" with normal methods is charm, and it's the only effect which should not be cured.

Glad we agree.

[kreso]

Feedback for Berserker BG1

I finished BG1 part, now am in SoA. Iron Throne battle took 1 single reload , as opossed as with my last run, with only Oil of speed and Invulnerability potion spent for buffs.

First of all, he's much, much more balanced. You won't see that (almost no-penalty) Frenzy triggering nearly as much in travels around wilderness, due to the fact he usually hits far more often that he's being hit (Full-plate and all).

It does trigger much more often when it really makes a significant difference, which is great. bonuses are neat, and the extra apr really helps in such harder battles. Furthermore, I never reloaded because of slaying innocents.

He aquired 59% kills in the end, finishing with level 8 and 208k EXP (revised tables).

I also used Wisp's Item Randomiser, found the game quite harder (I had to settle for regular Plate for a long time, no Greenstone amulet up to final level of Durlag's Tower - this alone made the game significantly harder, I had to resort to invisibility-offensive stance 1 shot kill to finish some mages quickly, I found only 3 scrolls of Chaos in entire game, and no Wand of MS until Iron Throne). Yet, I am very pleased with his preformance. I settled for using 2-handed swords, so Frenzy +1 apr will still be useful in ToB.

I was suspicious of his use in final battle, turned out ok. Needed more time than in my previous Cavalier/Inquisitor run, but it was fine. His Frenzy always keeps him on current target, so it makes him quite less prone to attacking your own when faced against enemies with significant HP pool/stoneskins.

Excelled in Durlag's tower, for some reason, demolishing that end Demon solo under Rage/Frenzy in 2 rounds. Also, he's very useful vs heavily armored clerics, which tend to cause much problems due to low AC/prebuff. (I have ToBEx option not to disrupt spellcasting so easilly).

Overall, imo, for BG1, (can't believe I'm saying this after all this time ) - done.

Still need to see his preformance in SoA/ToB ofc.

[kreso]

Berserker, SoA, Irenicus Dungeon until mid Underdark (levels 8-14)

Traveling with Mincs (Barbarian), Mazzy, Aerie, Cernd and Imoen (all vanilla)

I'll start with not so good news. Berserk opcode seems completely unpredictable. Sometimes, he will turn to your own party and attack them regardless of enemy standing next to him. Happens rarely, but it does happen. From what I've seen, there's no way to avoid it other than keeping serious distance. It may also cause Berserker to switch targets immediately and attack friendly tagets. I've observed Frenzied behaviour for a while, and it seems to lack any logic behind the BG2 engine forces driving it.

He does work as a single front-liner, or with constant micro of your other front-liners (only Minsc in my case). Another option is to use him as vanilla Kensai - send someone in first, then attack with Berserker. This option works, but it makes little sense to use Berserker in such a way (a fighter can do the same).

Now the good news:

Within IR, I've found several items which seem perfect for berserker. My setup will be based around the idea of "hit me and you'll be sorry" - Nature's Vengeance cloak (1D10 electrical damage on attacker), Death Knight's Armor (cold damage to attacker, immunity to Necromancy and healing), belt of Trollish Fortitude (for Regen).

So far I've found belt and cloak (Randomizer) and it works really good.

Within BG2 levels, his "unreliability" increases by a large margin. He keeps his title as "the most damaging" fighter (he does more damage than a Kensai, actually, provided use of Offensive Stance which I use on him liberally (read:always)). He still needs to keep battles very short - this was very easy in BG1, for BG2 it's not so anymore.

I'll see how it goes from Underdark to ToB and give more feedback.

Overall, he does seem a bit weak at mid levels, but this may be

a) just my experience (given the randomness factor)

b) SCS 2 enemies factor

c) I have missed something about Berserk opcode and how to avoid getting targeted by him. I think his rage may be avoided by going invisible, even briefly. I'll try that out. Not the most perfect or elegant solution, but if it works...

Maybe adding a "cure Frenzy" button wouldn't be so bad, even if it would work for a split second, just until he stops focusing on his own. Not sure.

Anyways, since I had Barbarian, Minsc (Flail and Shield);

I am very surprised by how effective this kit is in BG2. Even with sub-par DEX score Minsc obtains an AC score of -16 , dressed in leather/medium shield/FoA. He attacks very fast, all he needs in combat is a single kill to trigger Cleave effect. At these levels (14), he pretty much equals my Berserker in damage output, sometimes even surpasses him. The real "big kahuna" is his Rage upgrade at 10th level - this means he can use Rage immediately at the start of battle, which helps him grab the first kill for Cleave to come online. After that it's like a domino effect.

He isn't that good vs big enemies, he needs Cleave badly (aTweaks Elementals are very difficult for him, for example) but otherwise, very, very powerful kit.

And Mazzy (my halfing shortbow fighter):

Again, plesantly surprised. Called shots never seem to stop to amaze me. Trip vs Sahaugin mages is golden (I make sure that even if they get up they're filled with Acid). With only leather armor, she stays behind frontlines, picking of mages in an instant. In other instances, she uses Offensive Stance for extra 3 damage per arrow, making her a DPS machine as well.

With SCS, mages run around constantly, doing their best to avoid melee hits. Trip makes it impossible for them to run, bypasing any defences apart from AC (but Mazzy doesn't miss ). She became my fav BG2 NPC.