Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

I peaked into SCS scripts. It appears that for every spell mages check for this:

CheckStatLT(Myself,50,SPELLFAILUREMAGE)

meaning, if a mage is hit by a WizardSlayer he will not cast spells for the noted duration (3 rounds). Too powerful of an ability?

Well, nothing prevents us to tweak WS ability to impose "only" 40%. I'm wondering why that check isn't set to something like 60-75%+. Isn't it still better to at least hope to cast 1 spell every 2 tries rather than hoping to strike the target with terrible thac0 and damage? o.O

[kreso]

Wizard Slayer

I'm wondering why that check isn't set to something like 60-75%+. Isn't it still better to at least hope to cast 1 spell every 2 tries rather than hoping to strike the target with terrible thac0 and damage? o.O

My toughts as well...it's not like that wizards stop doing anything (they run), but their beheviour is really sub-optimal. Maybe tweak it to 49%? That way they'll still cast something at least.

[lynx]

I agree, the SCS snippet is odd. Would a mage know he is affected by miscast magic without trying to cast anything? Any lore on that?

[Kalindor]

49% sounds arbitrary. Unless you mean have the class description state that it still inflicts 50% failure. Obviously the difference would not be noticeable.

[kreso]

49% sounds arbitrary. Unless you mean have the class description state that it still inflicts 50% failure. Obviously the difference would not be noticeable.

I agree, a number such as 49 in description would indeed seem a bit silly, to say the least.

[kreso]

I've been playing revised kits for a while now, so I figured I'd gather some toughts/ideas and write them down. Game mods are SCS + aTweaks Undead and Demons.

Fighter - Vastly improved from vanilla form, yet not too different in how you play him. Interesting new abilities, very balanced in terms of gameplay. I usually stick a long sword/warhammer and shield on him with some kind of ranged weapon, either darts or slings for Called Shots. Exellent utility character, with broad weapon selection from level 5 (that's about the time Called Shots can be used with a decent hit chance), and I tend to keep plenty of magical darts on him just for this ability.

In BG2, his Grandmastery really comes into play vs low AC monsters such as Dragons. Preforms well in both tanking and damage dealing, and has exellent utility potential for disabling enemies.

Tactician feat - I liked it, kind of "lesser Skald" bonuses in an instant, and always active. Perhaps improving this ability as a HLA ("Master Tactician") giving another +1 to said bonuses would be a nice addition.

He looses some edge in very late game (ToB) not because he gets weaker, but for the sheer number of enemies and due to the fact that magic users become highly dominant at that stages of the game.

 

Kensai - somehow I tought his AC would end up better...it does get really good, but quite late and only if you give him the best AC equipment you find. He is very decent as an "asassin" type in BG1 with Ki Strike. Fully playable as a front-line fighter, for as long as you're willing to micro him a bit. Big weakness in BG1 are enemies with bows and his own inability to use ranged weapons. In BG2, all these thing seem not to matter anymore. With GM and Haste/imp.haste he can still "asassinate" single oponnents incredibly fast. Katanas with their D10 damage are an obvious choice for a weapon, and even provide a disable (CF stun). Dual-wielding is highly recommended for the sheer power of Ki Strike. Reliant on both equipment and Ki Pool to keep himself alive, especially when faced with a large nuber of oponnents which bring him down fast.

As for suggestions - THAC0 bonus to Ki Strike in early levels would be nice (even Paladins get it with Smite Evil) and you hate when Ki doesn't connect. For high levels, he is an exellent fighter, bringing heavy damage output for the KI Strike duration, eliminating enemies very quickly indeed. If he needs buffs, it's only for his early levels Ki and a bit more defence at HLA levels (Evasion seems fitting enough).

 

Wizard Slayer - Tbh, I played with him the least. Was never my favourite kit, but I tested him regardless of my feeling towards him. Due to how SCS handles spell failure, if hit by Disruptive Strike a mage won't be casting anything for 3 rounds.In BG1 this ensures a kill for as long as you have means to detect invisibility and are not terribly unlucky with THAC0 dices (mages protect with AC quite decently in BG1). Only way to see that spell failure in action is to hit a mage while he's casting. I'm gonna try to tweak the chance to 49% just so mages try to cast something . It doesn't prevent them for using sequencers to hide etc. so it's still far from unbalaced. He still needs support, at least for detecting illusions and invisibility. I experimented quite a bit with various weapons for them. Daggers seem to be the best choice for BG1, since you get both range and a very powerful poison melee weapon. In addition it's light so can be used off-hand with no penalties. Another option I liked were crossbows. Even if slower to hit, missile seems to fly faster than daggers and in addition they actually deal a good deal of damage, unlike daggers. With Light Crossbow of speed, you've got yourself a relatively fast way of handling mages and dealing nice damage as well. Not to forget there are several types of bolts to be used, which also enhances your options.

Short Bows are very valid as well, but I tend to give these to a thief. Guess it's a matter of personal preference.

Axes, even for Bala's axe alone are too slow.

Long Sword is a nice option, but also, too slow for my liking.

Medium armor is not as powerful as medium shields imo.

 

Berserker - in BG1, he's probably the best available kit. Has huge damage output (and an Offensive Stance with 0 penalties if enraged) meaning he kills stuff so fast that very little danger can come to him. He can't use range, but it's irrelevant since you want him standing away from everyone, holding the front-line by himself. In Frenzy, gains more attacks per round than anybody else, and with a huge THAC0 boost (for BG1 terms). One thing I'd like to see (for this early levels) is a slow regeneration feature, just to even things out with the number of reloads he forces by killing stuff in towns. Needs a lot of micro, and is hard to play if you have an additional fighter up on the front lines with him. In some areas it's awfully hard to keep him from attacking innocents (Duchal palace battle in BG1 is very annoying in that regard).

In BG2, power gap in between him and the rest of fighters decreases rapidly. Battles are usually longer, and he needs them to last as short as possible. Has severe troubles in staying alive, and his bonuses from Frenzy no longer seem so powerful (he tops out at 6 apr, same as all fighters). For example, for BG1, +2THAC0, +1 APR, +2damage is somewhere about an extra 100% damage output, even more. In BG2, this drops to about 10 to 20 % over a fighter.

His saving grace is his Diehard feature. Not much at least until 14, where it starts to matter in combat (it's doubled by Haste). If coupled with some regen items, you can build a very hard-to-kill character.

As for ToB:

Deathless Frenzy is exellent. With SCS mages sometimes still target him with PW:kill (randomly decided which get it as a spell) so Death ward is highly recommended as a buff. Otherwise, I'd say this is his best feature. Heps balancing the fact that he can't drink potions immensly.

For weapons, early game I'd dual wield something slow (it helps with killing innocents, they have a chance if he cools off before he swings at them) like axes or flails, even if it hurts his THAC0. For late, two-handed sword seems to be the best option for him, and allows him to squeeze the most out of his no.of attacks.

As for suggestions - in BG1, he's ok - extremly powerful in melee (he's better than 2 fighters in Frenzy at low levels), yet vulnerable in prolonged battles. I still feel he needs a serius buff in BG2, in his damage output. You can't play him "I'm in front, everybody else 20 feet back" anymore to be on the safe side, and his advantages don't balance the fact that he can spend 18 seconds trying to kill your own party member. His "perfect companion" for the front-line seems to be the Blade, given how tanky this kit is.

In ToB, Diehard and Deathless Frenzy are both exellent improvements. Even for all his micromanagement needs, I like him.

 

Barbarian - a cool kit. Hard to kill, fast to attack. Lacks some Rage power due to THAC0 penalty early on, but in late BG1 and BG2 you can use this quite efficiently. Gains much of his early power through sheer number of HP and Cleave feature. Ability to use potions in Rage is a nice tweak and I like it. For BG1, dual-wielding and sword&shield are both good, however, I believe that 2-handed swords are the best weapon for them - higher damage-more chance to kill-more Cleave attacks. He's the only kit apart from frenzied Berserker which can improve their apr, which boosts their power considerably.

He can tank as well, making him a very valid pick in BG1.

BG2 - somehow seems to lack an early BG2 powerful, defining feature. Too bad Leap attack didn't work. He still makes for an awesome HP/AC tank and these facts alone make him able to whistand both damage spells and melee attacks.

ToB - he's great here. 20% inborn resistances, extra attack with rage, tons of HP make killing him hard business indeed.

A very fun, easy to play kit and is almost as good as a party-friendly fireball in BG1 with Cleave.

[Kalindor]

kreso's thoughts basically sum up my experiences as well. I think the Fighter and friends are very close to complete.

 

I'd like to highlight the Barbarian's lack of a high-level gimmick. Whirlwind Attack would be that gimmick, but the other Fighters also receive a HLA. Feral Senses I have not had much experience with, so that could end up being very helpful in SCS. I think Barbarian-specific HLAs can remedy this.

 

Wizard Slayer is actually one of my favorite kits now. They retain the Fighter's offensive prowess and have the ability to lay the hammer on low- to mid-level mages while sacrificing tanking ability. High-level mages that make themselves immune to all weapons or use high-level illusion magic (a frequent occasion with SCS) still give the Wizard Slayer pause, but his enhanced defensive abilities against spells allow him to stay in the fight most of the time. In my opinion, this is one of the more powerful kits as it circumvents a primary weakness present in the other Warrior classes. Being limited to light armor is not amusing, but seems necessary to me. Otherwise there is no situation in which the Wizard Slayer would not excel. One possibility for a HLA would be some countermeasure against mages hiding using illusions.

 

I would be hesitant to bestow anything else on the Kensai at high levels. If you think it is necessary, make Evasion or the like a HLA.

[kreso]

kreso's thoughts basically sum up my experiences as well. I think the Fighter and friends are very close to complete.

 

I'd like to highlight the Barbarian's lack of a high-level gimmick. Whirlwind Attack would be that gimmick, but the other Fighters also receive a HLA. Feral Senses I have not had much experience with, so that could end up being very helpful in SCS. I think Barbarian-specific HLAs can remedy this.

 

Does this mean we agree even for Bereserker's diminishing power in BG2?

Anyways, I tried doing something about it myself.

Total failure, but it doesn't matter - I noticed a few interesting things while at it.

With SR new "Improved Haste" it's impossible to gain over 6 APR if not under WW attack. This alone nerfs Berserker a lot. He equals Monks and any dual-wielding fighter in terms of apr when they get level 13. Monk with a simple Haste gets 6 apr at 18th level.

Now, if we can all agree that Berserker should be better in BG2 (I need confirmation on this. Anybody else has same feeling?) then he could get an additional APR over other fighters, yes? That was my devious plan.

Back to the issue with Imp.Haste above. This seems hardcoded into the engine - Haste doesn't allow apr to go above 6, never. New SR Imp.haste works as regular Haste spell + additional 1 apr. This works flawlessly on non-fighter types, including anybody who can't put *** in a weapon. Now, if a creature already has 5 apr Imp.haste will only add 1 more up to a maximum of 6 allowed.

The only way to improve apr beyond 6 is assigning an effect "double number of attacks". This is how Whirlwind works and allows numbers >6 to be achieved.

Following this, I made Frenzy give both "double apr" and -1/2 attack per round. Weird? Yes.

This equals to (dual-wielding):

level 1-7 - 3 apr (+1, same as before) - 4 apr for *** in a weapon

7-13 - 5 apr (+2)

13 < - 6 apr (+3)

Add grandmastery bonus at level 9:

9-13 - 6 apr

13 < - 7 apr (this is maximum apart Belm scimitar + Gauntlets of + 1/2 apr).

 

I can't say I'm pleased with these results.

He gains 4 apr if dual-wielding and has *** in a weapon at level 3 while Frenzied, which is insane for BG1.

He moves as if he was hasted, and even has an "improved haste" icon on portrait.

Furthermore, this heavilly favours dual-wielding over any other style in early levels, he gets nothing up to level 7 if isn't dual-wieldnig.

 

Now, why is this interesting if it's broken (4 apr at level 3!)?

I noticed a curious thing about him being hasted.

When he's in Frenzy, he attacks the present target first, after that the nearest creature, regardless of allegiance. If he can't find any red-circled creatures (enemies), he cools down the following round, and becomes controlable again.

However, all the bonuses from Frenzy are still there - immunities, extra apr etc.

Say he cooled off and sees an enemy. Again he turns yellow-circled, becomes uncontrolable and attacks him immediately, up until whole 18 seconds from the begining of Frenzy have passed. I need to recheck this, but he doesn't seem to attack fellow party members in this instance, but goes straight to whoever his enemy might be.

If this works as this, maybe Berserker could actually benefit from "trigger Frenzy when he's hit" in addition to "trigger Frenzy when he hits another". Much more as per PnP, at least.

Furthermore, if he's hasted, he cools down twice as fast - 3 seconds max if Frenzy triggered on the killing blow for the last enemy and begins a new combat round - (this seems similar with how Regeneration and Poison work, double strenght if hasted), which is great. If not hasted, you'll have him chasing someone 6 seconds in this instance.

 

EDIT:

I tested this again. Unfortunately, as soon as Frenzy triggers he attacks nearest target, friend or foe.

 

EDIT 2:

Is it possible to delay Berserk effect of Frenzy? For a round, say?

[Kalindor]

I am just trusting your impression of the Berserker in late SoA/ToB as I have only played one through BG:EE and into SoA chapter 2. The Berserker seems fine up until that point, but I could see how he could lose power later on due to the APR cap.

 

I would be fine with a % chance to frenzy when hit. I like that idea. However, it would only lessen his reliability.

 

Do you think it would be sufficient to give him damage-increasing HLAs to improve his power in the endgame, or is he too weak even before he gets the opportunity to select HLAs? I would imagine that the Berserker's HLAs would primarily be passive buffs since an active ability would be rather undependable due to the inability to use it during a frenzy. If he had an HLA that improved his melee damage by 1 or 2 and was selectable multiple times, would that be sufficient to make him appealing for you in the late game?

[kreso]

. I would be fine with a % chance to frenzy when hit. I like that idea. However, it would only lessen his reliability.

Yesterday evening I was thinking the same thing.

I tested my theory (he will attack his attacker and not the closest person) more. In general, he does actually attack his attacker. Sometimes, but rarely, he attacks the nearest target.

This is from IESDP:

 

#3 (0x003) State: Berserking [3]

Parameter #1: Irrelevant

Parameter #2: Irrelevant

Description:

Applies the berserk effect to the targeted creature(s). Target will uncontrollably attack enemies if any are in view, and will occasionally attack neutral creatures. The affected creature becomes berserk and its AI scripts stop running. Grants a +2 bonus to hit and damage with all weapons. It also sets the STATE_BERSERK flag. This opcode only affects party members.

 

 

Note the "occasionally" part. In my tests, IESDP is totally right on about this ability. Lets' say about 10-15% time he attacks his friends.

I will test this more, but so far I don't see any logic (nearest, last hit by etc) in his behaviour.

Now, I see several advantages of Frenzy when hit instead of how it is now:

1) It allows Berserker to be more controlable when you want it

2) We can still leave 20% chance to Frenzy if Rage is active (and this would be crucial)

3) How often in game are you attacked before you attack? Very rarely.

4) it's per PnP

5) It will allow Berserker to attack helpless and weak targets without worrying that Frenzy will unnececary trigger in towns etc. and it will decrease chance of killing crucial neutrals

6) making Frenzy less dependant on number of attacks and more on the number of enemies is a good thing imo

7) it will nerf his OPness in BG1 a bit, he is quite an AC character there

8) it will make him stronger in BG2, where control is much more needed - and you can always choose that he doesn't attack first, and let someone other tank at first

9) I can see a perfect armor for him in the Underdark within IR

10) do you need Frenzy vs gibberlings and the like?

 

Do you think it would be sufficient to give him damage-increasing HLAs to improve his power in the endgame, or is he too weak even before he gets the opportunity to select HLAs? I would imagine that the Berserker's HLAs would primarily be passive buffs since an active ability would be rather undependable due to the inability to use it during a frenzy. If he had an HLA that improved his melee damage by 1 or 2 and was selectable multiple times, would that be sufficient to make him appealing for you in the late game?

End-game he's fine. Both Diehard and especially Deathless Frenzy are very powerful abilities. And the way how ToB is made, you can simply kill everything, including civilians, without worryying too much.

In BG2, for example, attacking a Shadow thief sentry before you side with Bodhi is a reload.

[Demivrgvs]

kreso's thoughts basically sum up my experiences as well. I think the Fighter and friends are very close to complete.

 

 

Fighter

Overall he is already fine. Sooner or later he may undergo few refinements, such as getting something similar to PnP Armor Training, or a re-work on his tactical awareness feat (btw, yes - I do planned at least two HLAs to expand this particular aspect because I think cooperative combat should be a really defining feature of this KR class imo).

 

 

Barbarian

I'd like to highlight the Barbarian's lack of a high-level gimmick. Whirlwind Attack would be that gimmick, but the other Fighters also receive a HLA.

I'm not sure what you mean. What "high-level gimmick" the others fighter get which this kit apparently lack?

 

The only real thing he might lack imo is a "mid-level gimmick". Other fighters Grandmastery and he does not get anything as great as that. Supreme Cleave isn't bad per se, but Cleave is enough imo. Leap Attack would have been much better.

 

 

Berserker

I'm fine giving you guys a PnP-esque "go Frenzy when struck" solution to test but while I do agree with kreso's points there are quite a few negative points too, such as:

- may enter a Frenzy if hit by an arrow from a distant target

- may enter a Frenzy when struck by a spell (e.g. a Fireball, even if cast by the party; staying within a cloud spell could trigger it each round too; etc.)

Overall, it might give you more control over the character in some situations (e.g. while not enraged he can fight normally), but less in others (e.g. when "tanking"). Might be worth trying indeed though.

 

Regarding the whole 6 apr cap, for me the Berserker has always been about devastating powerful attacks, rather than absurdly fast strikes. The current +1 apr while frenzied is there because it's a PnP thing (and because Arda insisted on trying it so much ) but if it was just for me I would have probably not used it and focused more on raw damage (not to mention I've actually designed the Barbarian to be the one increasing apr in multiple ways). Anyway, I think the eventual lowered performance of KR's Berserker within late BG2 doesn't depend much on his offensive potential which is undeniably outstanding, if not unrivaled, but just his lack of control. Try disabling the berserking opcode while keeping the other Frenzy's stats and I'm 100% sure you'll see the Berserker becoming a completely unstoppable killing machine.

 

 

Kensai

I would be hesitant to bestow anything else on the Kensai at high levels. If you think it is necessary, make Evasion or the like a HLA.

Well, when I was considering to make Kensai's Ki Pool abilities improve at later levels (similarly to how I handled Monk's Ki Pool) my plan was to make Ki Dodge "evolve" into a "1-round Protection from all Weapons". What do you think? Would it be better left as an HLA? Also note that it would be a perfect "counter" to certain warrior's HLAs such as Critical Strike, which I think SCS warriors uses quite a lot, and probably is a death sentence if used against a Kensai (keeping in mind IR will make this kit unable to get immunity to criticals).

 

 

Wizard Slayer

One possibility for a HLA would be some countermeasure against mages hiding using illusions.

Well, I do wanted to give him some sort of anti-illusion skill back then, but I gave up because I felt it would have made this kit overlap with the Inquisitor even more than it already does. The general idea I come up with is that the Inquisitor is great at tearing down spell protections and illusions, but the WS might not need it because he has much more defensive tools against mages to survive longer while waiting the right opportunity to quickly strike and tear down the mage. If the WS can land even a single Disruptive Strike against a mage he most likely wins the duel imo, whereas the Inquisitor needs opponent's protections to be down for a longer period of time to slay a spellcaster because he lacks such "insta-win" ability

 

 

Warrior's HLAs

The plan was to at least have all warriors out (if not all classes) before starting to seriously work on these, but I may be persuaded to work on HLAs sooner.

[kreso]

Barbarian

The only real thing he might lack imo is a "mid-level gimmick". Other fighters Grandmastery and he does not get anything as great as that. Supreme Cleave isn't bad per se, but Cleave is enough imo. Leap Attack would have been much better.

Leap attack would have indeed been perfect. Late game he's a powerhouse.

 

Berserker

I'm fine giving you guys a PnP-esque "go Frenzy when struck" solution to test

 

but while I do agree with kreso's points there are quite a few negative points too, such as:

- may enter a Frenzy if hit by an arrow from a distant target

- may enter a Frenzy when struck by a spell (e.g. a Fireball, even if cast by the party; staying within a cloud spell could trigger it each round too; etc.)

I tought about these as well, one thing that came to my mind were Magic missiles and poisons for some reason...

However, due to how Berserk opcode works he would probably instantly charge the first enemy, and would only rarely turn towards party members.

I definitely think this is worth trying out.

 

Overall, it might give you more control over the character in some situations (e.g. while not enraged he can fight normally), but less in others (e.g. when "tanking").

True.

 

Might be worth trying indeed though.

Make it happen. We can always tweak the numbers and such. I tried to tweak my Berserker locally, but for some reason Frenzy refuses to trigger on hit, regardless of how I tweak it. Bah.

 

Regarding the whole 6 apr cap, for me the Berserker has always been about devastating powerful attacks, rather than absurdly fast strikes. The current +1 apr while frenzied is there because it's a PnP thing (and because Arda insisted on trying it so much ) but if it was just for me I would have probably not used it and focused more on raw damage (not to mention I've actually designed the Barbarian to be the one increasing apr in multiple ways). Anyway, I think the eventual lowered performance of KR's Berserker within late BG2 doesn't depend much on his offensive potential which is undeniably outstanding, if not unrivaled, but just his lack of control. Try disabling the berserking opcode while keeping the other Frenzy's stats and I'm 100% sure you'll see the Berserker becoming a completely unstoppable killing machine.

6 apr is enough, sure, I don't mind the cap. What I wanted to point out is that +1 apr at level 1 is 100% increase; while +1 apr at level 13 is 33%.

In BG1, lack of control is on par (more or less) with Frenzy benefits.

In BG2, I'd rather have control than Frenzy bonuses.

Again, Deathless frenzy indeed makes up for the troubles it can cause, and Berserker still remains "killing machine" even with Berserk operational.

 

Kensai

Well, when I was considering to make Kensai's Ki Pool abilities improve at later levels (similarly to how I handled Monk's Ki Pool) my plan was to make Ki Dodge "evolve" into a "1-round Protection from all Weapons". What do you think? Would it be better left as an HLA? Also note that it would be a perfect "counter" to certain warrior's HLAs such as Critical Strike, which I think SCS warriors uses quite a lot, and probably is a death sentence if used against a Kensai (keeping in mind IR will make this kit unable to get immunity to criticals).

Uhhh.....Apsolute immunity? Regarding SCS, yes, in ToB Critical Strike and Smite are both used...it is a death sentence, even with critical hit protection these enemies can be lethal.

It might be indeed needed. I'm not sure if it should be HLA, however. With new tables you might easilly get to ToB without them.

 

Wizard Slayer

Well, I do wanted to give him some sort of anti-illusion skill back then, but I gave up because I felt it would have made this kit overlap with the Inquisitor even more than it already does. The general idea I come up with is that the Inquisitor is great at tearing down spell protections and illusions, but the WS might not need it because he has much more defensive tools against mages to survive longer while waiting the right opportunity to quickly strike and tear down the mage. If the WS can land even a single Disruptive Strike against a mage he most likely wins the duel imo, whereas the Inquisitor needs opponent's protections to be down for a longer period of time to slay a spellcaster because he lacks such "insta-win" ability

I'd leave this kit as it is for now. A mage cannot cast spells while remaining completely invisible anyway, which makes him targetable by weapons even if under imp.invisibility. Remember, 1 hit is all he needs.

In addition, if you build him around MR increasing items you can use Disruptive Strike whenever you want without worrying too much about defence.

[Kalindor]

Are you proposing the following behavior for frenzy?

-% chance of entering a frenzy when damaged. Remove % chance on striking.

-While enraged, % chance of entering a frenzy on striking.

[kreso]

Are you proposing the following behavior for frenzy?

-% chance of entering a frenzy when damaged. Remove % chance on striking.

-While enraged, % chance of entering a frenzy on striking.

Yup. Maybe 5 or 10% when hit (I'd vote 5) and 15-20 per hit when in Rage.

[Kalindor]

I am fine with this idea.

 

*Edit: Also, no hurry on the HLAs, Demi. I have been discussing them merely as a potential upcoming power boost for kits that do not perform well in ToB levels. kreso mentioned that he thinks the Kensai is too vulnerable and the Berserker doesn't do enough damage at high levels. With the possibilities of enhancing kits via HLAs, we don't have to worry too much about adding kit features to correct late-game power deficits, if those do exist.