Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Lawlight]

For a side-note, him attacking fellow party members leads to some whacky situations - example - protagonist starts attacking Mazzy, who I send back, protagonist is running after her, and Mind Flayers are running after my protagonist...

 

I know exactly what you mean. More often than not I've to use Abundant Step to get out of Korgans sight.

 

Conceptually I'd simply remove shields from Berserkers and re-equip Korgan...but either solutions would be fine with me if there was a consensus.

 

Fine with me.

[Kalindor]

I vote for no shields at all. My only reservation is that every other fighter kit has a shield restriction. Oh well.

[Grammarsalad]

I'm all for no shields for berserks.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

Go with no shields at all. Everybody seems ok with it, I'm also fine with that choice. Additionaly, since you feel that True Fighter needs something more - there, he can use any shield in the game. Two birds in one shot.

I did not expected to have the consensus (at the moment 5 players out of 5 are in favour of it).

 

I would agree with Frenzy back to 5% per hit...still would like to have a bit higher chance when he's badly injured (which, in turn, would make Deathless Frenzy more likely to last longer)

That was my plan, but either it's still a relatively low % or I'd need some sort of cooldown to prevent a semi permanent Frenzy. Speaking of Frenzy, no one commented on the possibility of "curing the frenzy" when an opponent is killed. The "pro" is that it would make Frenzy 99% party friendly, the con is that sometimes you might actually wish the Frenzy to go on (especially later on with Deathless Frenzy). Else there's always the possibility of adding an ability or item to "protect" from Frenzy.

 

On a side note, can you confirm the current Diehard feat work as intended? It should (and I added a portrait icon too to make it quickly noticeable), but my fear is that something might go wrong similarly to Fighter's Tactician feat:

For example, at level 11:

- it's still 1 hp ever 6 seconds

- the effect lasts exactly 6 seconds (then it checks again for <50% for further 6 seconds and so on)

Can you confirm that you regain at least 1 hp before the duration expires?

 

 

Barbarian

A suggestion for Barbarian's mid levels (can't say if implementable, I think some IR weapon has it however). He seems to be an agile, strong warrior, reliant on fast movement (even gets extra saves on reflex). Give him a chance (say, 25%), when hit, to get an additional APR, counter-attack. Not too powerful, yet not too shabby and it would match with his inborn resistance and HP.

I already thought about it because of Pathfinder's Come and Get Me rage power, and because AD&D Back Protection actually had a similar feature but I'm not sure because:

- a proper "come and get me" ability sounds more like a Berserker thing now. Our current Barbarian actually has great dodging skills, and I'm not sure that an ability where you actually hope to get hit for a counter fits the theme.

- a variant "dodge/parry + counter attack" (what I planned for the eventual Monk's Crane Style) sounds more like a Kensai thing, no?

 

I wanted to give him AD&D Wild Fighting stance, but within PnP it's almost identical to the current Berserker's Rage. AD&D WF causes -3 AC penalty while granting +1 apr and +3 to attack & damage rolls - all followed by a devastating fatigue effect at the end of it which causes -5 penalty to AC and attack rolls, -3 to all other rolls, and 1 point more of damage taken from each hit (aka BG's -1 luck penalty). Now, even assuming I can tweak it (I'd go for a -x AC for +x to attack and damage rolls stance, a sort of variant Offensive Stance), wouldn't it make the Barbarian similar to the Berserker again?

 

 

Wizard Slayer

Just so you know, I'm tempted to allow medium armor and/or medium shields. On one hand it would surely help in BG1 (whereas for BG2 it's not a huge difference imo, with IR there are tons of outstanding light armors there) and it might help removing the feel kreso is having about this kit looking like a rogue, otoh I'm not sure because heavier equipment don't fit the concept (e.g. it somewhat conflicts with Inner Focus evasion-like features), and I fear the current WS with medium armors would be too powerful (am I wrong?).

 

On a side note, with IR installed we might create a good situation where you pick medium armors for a melee oriented WS and light armors for a ranged WS (medium armors slightly reduce DEX and thus ranged thac0 as well - attack speed might come handy too). Mmm...

[kreso]

Berserker

....or I'd need some sort of cooldown to prevent a semi permanent Frenzy. Speaking of Frenzy, no one commented on the possibility of "curing the frenzy" when an opponent is killed. The "pro" is that it would make Frenzy 99% party friendly, the con is that sometimes you might actually wish the Frenzy to go on (especially later on with Deathless Frenzy). Else there's always the possibility of adding an ability or item to "protect" from Frenzy.

I'd like (and believe I mentioned it somewhere) that cooldown could be a nice feature....it has drawbacks however, you could simply force attack something to trigger it before major battle, ensuring it doesn't happen when you don't want to....meaning, you'd want to keep it real short, just to prevent permanent DF (otoh, Frenzy can't be triggered during Frenzy, right?)

Maybe add a special ability to stop it...don't know.

 

 

Can you confirm that you regain at least 1 hp before the duration expires?

I tried this out, quite so...I'm sure he regenarates slowly up to 50% HP, and it does improve at higher levels. It triggers only when below 50%. If you take a single HP worth damage which will get you below treshold, it will heal you up again (to 50%, ofc)

 

 

Barbarian

....wouldn't it make the Barbarian similar to the Berserker again?

Yes, I know it's not perfect....

 

 

Wizard Slayer

.... fear the current WS with medium armors would be too powerful (am I wrong?).

Hard to say.You'd make him less specialized for sure. Would need to try this out, don't want to jump to conclusions.

 

On a side note, with IR installed we might create a good situation where you pick medium armors for a melee oriented WS and light armors for a ranged WS (medium armors slightly reduce DEX and thus ranged thac0 as well - attack speed might come handy too). Mmm...

This, I think, sounds perfect. Note that in gameplay, for WS, it's crucial for his first hits to connect, otherwise he's toast. Ranged weapons are highly recommended due to their THAC0 bonus for high Dexterity, at least early (BG1, BG2 until say, level 13-14). I don't think they'd be too strong (in BG1, the best armor which they could use is Mail of the Dead. Not bad, but regarding pure AC, moreover with "hidden" modifiers it's far from a full-plate protection, and has AC3. They're also limited to small shields as well). It also has a speed factor penalty, which hurts WS the most out of all classes.

[Lawlight]

Wizard Slayer

Just so you know, I'm tempted to allow medium armor and/or medium shields.

I'd opt for both. As you pointed out already, within IR it should be balanced. And a WS should really be able to use the Shield of Balduran.

[kreso]

Wizard Slayer

Just so you know, I'm tempted to allow medium armor and/or medium shields.

I'd opt for both. As you pointed out already, within IR it should be balanced. And a WS should really be able to use the Shield of Balduran.

Yeah, true for Balduran.

I tought about this a bit, and I'd vote against allowing for medium. Some shields within IR in BG2 are simply too good, and there is one for pretty much every situation...I'd keep them in leather and with light shields....otherwise, they'd be too tanky (example, Sentinel is +6 to AC, medium shield)

[Ardanis]

Berserker

I did not expected to have the consensus (at the moment 5 players out of 5 are in favour of it).

I suspect that such solidarity is exactly what makes the shield restriction into no disadvantage at all. If nobody doesn't want to use a shield, then nobody will even notice they can't.

 

As for Korgan, he seems a classic enough dwarven warrior to me... I have to say, I may end up stripping him of berserker kit

[Kalindor]

I just want to remove shields in order for the True Fighter to be the undisputed best pure tank of the lot, for whatever that's worth.

 

I personally would vote no for Wizard Slayers using medium armor. I haven't tested it, but I suspect that a Wizard Slayer who could use medium armor would not be giving up enough in exchange for his mage-killing skills.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

I did not expected to have the consensus (at the moment 5 players out of 5 are in favour of it).

I suspect that such solidarity is exactly what makes the shield restriction into no disadvantage at all. If nobody doesn't want to use a shield, then nobody will even notice they can't.

I instead took it as a sign that players agree on how a Berserker is supposed to be roleplayed. Kalindor was actually using a shield for BG1 and that is why he was able to point out that with shields a Berserker could tank just as well as a True Fighter.

 

As for Korgan, he seems a classic enough dwarven warrior to me... I have to say, I may end up stripping him of berserker kit

Korgan is a Battlerager imo, aka a dwarven Berserker. I think the kit fits his personality and background quite well.

 

 

Wizard Slayer

I suspect that a Wizard Slayer who could use medium armor would not be giving up enough in exchange for his mage-killing skills.

That was exactly my thought when I restricted them to light armors and shields...but then BG1 feedback seemed to indicate that the WS is somewhat too vulnerable there. I can easily wait for more feedback.

 

@kreso, which version of Ir are you using? Because Sentinel +4 doesn't exist anymore. The best medium shields available to a WS within BG2 would be the Shield of Balduran (+4 AC, +10% mr) and the Mirror Shield (+5 AC, deflects gaze attacks and rays).

[kreso]

@kreso, which version of Ir are you using? Because Sentinel +4 doesn't exist anymore. The best medium shields available to a WS within BG2 would be the Shield of Balduran (+4 AC, +10% mr) and the Mirror Shield (+5 AC, deflects gaze attacks and rays).

V3 Beta 1.13

[Demivrgvs]

@kreso, which version of Ir are you using? Because Sentinel +4 doesn't exist anymore. The best medium shields available to a WS within BG2 would be the Shield of Balduran (+4 AC, +10% mr) and the Mirror Shield (+5 AC, deflects gaze attacks and rays).

V3 Beta 1.13

And Sentinel shield is still there? o.O

[kreso]

Yup.

EDIT: It's somewhere, via NI I could find references to it only on creatures named chalpc01.cre - chalpc08.cre. It seems to be charname equiped with Blackrazor, Pride of the Legion etc. Don't know where this occurs in game. Therefore, yes, it seems to be removed from game, at least for your party. Anyway, both Mirror and Balduran are very powerful.

[Galsic]

As for Korgan, he seems a classic enough dwarven warrior to me... I have to say, I may end up stripping him of berserker kit

 

And change him to what? WS? No, that suggests a level of focus when, to him, anyone who isn't a child is as good a target for his bloodlust as another. True Fighter? Not that, either. While he might cooperate with my party, I wouldn't look to him for tactical guidance nearly so much as I would to make sure he isn't trying to axe me in the back. Kensai? Rofl, no, he likes his horned helmet too much . So yeah, like Demi said, no fighter kit fits Korgan better than Berzerker.

 

Wizard Slayer

Just so you know, I'm tempted to allow medium armor and/or medium shields.

I'd opt for both. As you pointed out already, within IR it should be balanced. And a WS should really be able to use the Shield of Balduran.

 

Even if WS doesn't get medium shields (which I would be okay with), it still would have access to Shield of Harmony. Can't go wrong with charm and confusion immunity on top of WS's other anti-magic defenses.

[kreso]

I have tested Berserker a bit further. His Diehard Regeneration has a slight delay before activating. This delay is most noticable when you're being hit for massive damage very fast.

Also, I'm quite convinced that Frenzy should indeed last a bit longer.

EDIT:

I managed to catch last second Frenzy. You can also see that Regeneration kicked in as well (icon shows up), altough very late (at almost zero HP)

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