Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

I have tested Berserker a bit further. His Diehard Regeneration has a slight delay before activating. This delay is most noticable when you're being hit for massive damage very fast.

Also, I'm quite convinced that Frenzy should indeed last a bit longer.

EDIT:

I managed to catch last second Frenzy. You can also see that Regeneration kicked in as well (icon shows up), altough very late (at almost zero HP)

link

I think Diehard may not trigger instantaneously because the check for <50% hp is made every x seconds, not every frame. Anyway, next time I work on the Berserker I'm fine trying a 3 rounds long Frenzy.

[Grammarsalad]

Playtested a (Multiplayer) party with a Kensai protagonist and Wizard slayer (and paladin) companion. I'm still at low levels but I really like the way the Kensai plays. No real complaints as yet.

 

The WS plays a little weak to me at least at this early stage. She seems to be pretty much a non-factor in non-caster fights. Heh, I too kept wanting to put her into stealth mode! Right now she doesn't have proficiency in her long bow--something I really regret--but she ends up using her bow in support more than her two shortswords. She tends to be a liability in melee as she keeps getting hit.

 

I think she should get medium armor proficiency or at least defensive stance (or something else to help her defensively) to hold her own in the early part of the game. Either that or the class should be fluffed as a range specialist.

[kreso]

I'm still at low levels but I really like the way the Kensai plays. No real complaints as yet.

Yea. Kensai is really great. Ki dodge is awesome, even more when you get 2nd use per day.

 

The WS plays a little weak to me at least at this early stage. She seems to be pretty much a non-factor in non-caster fights.

I think you might find her weak through all of BG1, moreover is you spent those level1 4 pips on Short Sword/Dual wield. I'd personaly recommend daggers (you've got poison +2 dagger, which is imo one of the best weapons in BG1) + you get both range and melee power in one proficiency. Another option are darts, for 3 APR, even if that might seem like a weaker option - it allows for fast Mirror image removal and overall higher chance to hit.

Bows of all type I find useless on them, as their Speed Factor (most important number) is too big for them to be of any use- 6 for Short and 7 for Long bow. I am also playing BG1 (BGT) now, and also have WS in party....with IR, even Studded leather armors have penalties to Speed factor, so I dressed her in cheapest Leather. She's throwing daggers for now.

 

I think she should get medium armor proficiency or at least defensive stance (or something else to help her defensively) to hold her own in the early part of the game. Either that or the class should be fluffed as a range specialist.

Or just give them stealth and code them as rangers ...

Somehow, I believe their biggest problem (in SCS) is getting close to mages before they cast something, since all low-level disables have insanely short casting time (assuming ranged weapons equipped/SCS full mage prebuff) because of projectile (arrow, dart) travel speed. This can be helped via Invisibility, of course.Thinking of it, Ring of invisibilty might actually be considered a core item on them.

I see no big problems with Splint/Chain armor, nor do I think this will affect them in any "big" way. It will make them somewhat better in BG1, no doubt about it. If you feel that they need a bit of a power boost, I'm ok with that. In addition, they'll stop looking like Stalkers/Archers.

One thing I'm sure of, with IR installed you'll never want to wear medium armor anyway if you need to disrupt some mage.

Wouldn't vote for Defensive Stance, doesn't seem fitting imo.

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

I won't be able to upload anything until this afternoon, but I've already changed WS to be able to wear medium armors.

 

I see no big problems with Splint/Chain armor, nor do I think this will affect them in any "big" way. It will make them somewhat better in BG1, no doubt about it. If you feel that they need a bit of a power boost, I'm ok with that. In addition, they'll stop looking like Stalkers/Archers.

One thing I'm sure of, with IR installed you'll never want to wear medium armor anyway if you need to disrupt some mage.

This. Though unfortunately without IR I fear it all kinda falls apart and they get slightly too powerful imo.

 

On a side note, I'm really glad we have discovered weapon speed factor can make a difference and that we made it a crucial stat within IR.

[kreso]

Though unfortunately without IR I fear it all kinda falls apart and they get slightly too powerful imo.

I wouldn't say that. IR has a lot of weapons which are really good vs spellcasters (Angurvadal, Cutthroat, Namarra, Short Sword of the Mask +5 to name a few).

Don't worry about it. The difference Splint/Full plate is still noticable even without IR (and ends up being a single AC point better - White Dragon Scale is -2 vanilla and -1 IR).

[kreso]

Berserker

...Speaking of Frenzy, no one commented on the possibility of "curing the frenzy" when an opponent is killed. The "pro" is that it would make Frenzy 99% party friendly, the con is that sometimes you might actually wish the Frenzy to go on (especially later on with Deathless Frenzy).

Trying ot the Berserker some more, and this seems more and more appealing. "Con" is a drawback, sure, but nothing would prevent you from entering Frenzy again, right? It's not like it wouldn't make sense, and Berserker'2 drawbacks are quite big already.

[Lawlight]

Berserker

...Speaking of Frenzy, no one commented on the possibility of "curing the frenzy" when an opponent is killed. The "pro" is that it would make Frenzy 99% party friendly, the con is that sometimes you might actually wish the Frenzy to go on (especially later on with Deathless Frenzy).

It makes sense.

[Kalindor]

I think I'd prefer that Frenzy continue unabated and just take the positives and negatives that come with that. If you want, you could make a "Controlled Fury" ability that they gain upon reaching a certain level since Frenzy is thought to be beneficial in BG1 but a hindrance in BG2. Alternately, make it a HLA that players could choose to select (or not) to determine how it functions.

[kreso]

I tried tweaking Frenzy values (chance to Frenzy and duration), and allowing it to re-trigger itself - pretty much allowing for a permanent Frenzy.....

Basically, what I did is:

decreased chance to enter Frenzy mode to 5 %

reduced duration to 9 seconds

allowed hits in Frenzy to trigger additional Frenzy

I can't say I'm fully pleased with what I've done (my character stays with 1 HP a tad longer than Frenzy lasts), duration is too long but overall....it doesn't seem that bad, tbh.

 

EDIT:

I tried again, changed all Frenzy effects and Frenzy itself to last for 6 seconds. Chance is 5%. Still it can "refresh" itself on hit.

Trying it out now in BG1, Berserker seems quite a bit less overwhelming (no more free Frenzy massacre - only when in Rage, Frenzy can trigger often, bringing more penalties), due to relatively low (2) APR it balances out quite nice , I never managed to prolong my Frenzy yet (did in ToB). I also installed DEX penalties for Heavy Armor, to ensure his AC doesn't go too low. Still manages to have that "aura of unreliabilty", which is good.

First noticable thing is that he snaps out of Frenzy quite fast, and I like it. He may take a swing at his comrade (quite realistic when you think of it) but comes to his senses fast enough so no more running away from him is required. This pleases me plenty, since it's very frustrating when happens in game.

Since we all seem to agree that Berserker is OP in BG1 exactly due to Frenzy, making Frenzy shorter can be labeled as a good thing, no?

Now, in BG2, he does seem to preform poorly mostly due to his lack of control - kicking Fireshields, bumping into Dragons and the like.

If anything, to survive an encounter, you depend on control mostly. You don't sit back and turn AI on, you give commands, respond as neccecary.

Keeping Frenzy so short (1 round) helps him immensly. He will take damage, he won't be able to do anything about it, and he still remains unreliable enough not to be OP (Frenzy can last longer than 1 round).

Furthermore, Deathless Frenzy, due to the fact that Frenzy can theoretically be permanent for as long as you're attacking, gains bit more value. I tested this more than 2 dozen times (Saradush) and it never happened. Best I could get was for it to last around 10 seconds. Chance for Frenzy to renew itself is of course, directly linked to apr.

Say it's 7 (imp.haste + 1 from Frenzy). So, it's a 35% per round for as long as you keep hitting something. Does it seem imbalanced?

I'd really like feedback and toughts about this. I personally like it.

[Lawlight]

Sounds like a good way to handle both it's op'ness in bg1 and the friendly fire. Would like to test it myself. Especially in TOB part of the game. Could you please upload your file?

[kreso]

Sounds like a good way to handle both it's op'ness in bg1 and the friendly fire. Would like to test it myself. Especially in TOB part of the game. Could you please upload your file?

I could, but would still like to see if Demi thinks this could work, since he seemed worried about the possibilty of semi-permanent Frenzy.

And tbh, I don't feel comfortable distributing materials I changed and did not create . I don't even feel comfortable tweaking this for my own use....

If he's ok with it, I'll upload 2 files I tweaked, np. Would still like Demi to check up on what I've done. however, since I may have done someting wrong:

dvcl323a.eff - Probability 2 - changed from 90 to 95 - this should be the non-raged Frenzy chance

dvcl323a.spl - under each melee ability I removed Protection from spell.... line - this should allow extended Frenzy.

-for each effect I changed duration to 6 (Berserk, apr, MinHP...) for both melee abiities

 

In the meantime, this is the longest I could survive with this change. Note, this is a specific battle (i.e. solo, normal difficulty, so I can survive for Frenzy to trigger, enemies use HLA's, no mages or Clerics, etc.) so it's by no means a proof of anything. It also doesn't take into account disables - it's crucial for Berserker to keep attacking with this tweak.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

@kreso, I have a couple of doubts about tweaking Frenzy to last a single round and stack with itself (the latter is crucial for your tweak):

1) both +1 apr and -2 AC/saves stack with themselves, so even with a low 5+5% chance while enraged it's quite possible to get +2 apr and -4 AC/saves penalties

2) a character with high apr can easily remain under frenzy semi-permanently while attacking (the above issue increases the chances of this happening - as per your link)

3) you may end up with a Berserker who enters a frenzy, end it, and re-enter it all within 2 rounds. Conceptually I don't like this much.

 

If I wanted to implement something like you did I would suggest the following:

a) remove +1 apr and -2 AC/save penalties to keep Frenzy "stackable" (aka you can make Frenzy keep going on while attacking and berserker's +2 hit/dmg does not stack) --> this fixes my issue 1)

b) increase chance to enter a Frenzy while enraged --> this should solve issue 3)

But then:

c) issue 2) persists, unless a sort of cooldown is added --> but with a cooldown we are back at square one because you can't make Frenzy extend its own duration by continuing to attack, which is what you wanted in the first place, isn't it?

d) I'm not sure about removing +1 apr and -2 AC/save penalties --> it might help BG1 balance, but I fear it would make entering a Frenzy quite underwhelming compared to its PnP potential, am I wrong?

 

Overall, your idea has some merits but I'm not convinced about it. You know what, it's about time I dedicate some time again on fighters (and Berserker in particular). I'll put aside UH for a while and concentrate on "studying" this matter this evening (I'm not at home until 4 or 5 PM).

[kreso]

Berserker

@kreso, I have a couple of doubts about tweaking Frenzy to last a single round and stack with itself (the latter is crucial for your tweak):

1) both +1 apr and -2 AC/saves stack with themselves, so even with a low 5+5% chance while enraged it's quite possible to get +2 apr and -4 AC/saves penalties

Hardcoded. Apr >6 doesn't happen, even if he drank Oil of Speed.

-4AC/saves - true, these stack. Given his nature, it doesn't seem that bad...moreover due to only 6 seconds duration per stack. I only managed to stack it twice.

 

2) a character with high apr can easily remain under frenzy semi-permanently while attacking (the above issue increases the chances of this happening - as per your link)

This is true, I tought you'll not like it. Is the unkillable state 2 long there? He was unkillable for approx 20 seconds. I guess I just answered my question . Anyway, this chance is very small and is very reliant on Rage. I tested this over and over again, it just doesn't happen.

The above video is the longest I could achieve. If he's not Enraged, he might not even enter Frenzy. Sometimes Frenzy won't trigger despite wishing that it does.

It overall very unreliable skill. Fun - yes, when it happens, but I was forcing it to happen. Something to count on - no. This video is one out of >50 attempts so far. Usually he ends up dead much, much faster.

 

3) you may end up with a Berserker who enters a frenzy, end it, and re-enter it all within 2 rounds. Conceptually I don't like this much.

Neither do I.

 

If I wanted to implement something like you did I would suggest the following:

a) remove +1 apr and -2 AC/save penalties to keep Frenzy "stackable" (aka you can make Frenzy keep going on while attacking and berserker's +2 hit/dmg does not stack) --> this fixes my issue 1)

Not needed I believe.

 

b) increase chance to enter a Frenzy while enraged --> this should solve issue 3)

I don't uderstand this. His chance to Frenzy is 20% while enraged, which is really high. I was thinking more like nerfing it to 15% actually.

 

c) issue 2) persists, unless a sort of cooldown is added --> but with a cooldown we are back at square one because you can't make Frenzy extend its own duration by continuing to attack, which is what you wanted in the first place, isn't it?

I wouldn't say I wanted it .If there are more viable ideas for Berserker, I'm very willing to try them.

 

d) I'm not sure about removing +1 apr and -2 AC/save penalties --> it might help BG1 balance, but I fear it would make entering a Frenzy quite underwhelming compared to its PnP potential, am I wrong?

You are right, if anything I'd keep these intact.

[kreso]

P.S.

@Demi

Are you ok with me sending my tweaked files to Lawlight? I would really like to see what other testers think of berserker's preformance in game with these.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

@kreso, I have a couple of doubts about tweaking Frenzy to last a single round and stack with itself (the latter is crucial for your tweak):

1) both +1 apr and -2 AC/saves stack with themselves, so even with a low 5+5% chance while enraged it's quite possible to get +2 apr and -4 AC/saves penalties

Hardcoded. Apr >6 doesn't happen, even if he drank Oil of Speed.

-4AC/saves - true, these stack. Given his nature, it doesn't seem that bad...moreover due to only 6 seconds duration per stack. I only managed to stack it twice.

A Berserker with a single weapon (e.g. greatsword) normally has 3 apr at level 13, thus your suggested Frenzy can indeed add 2+ attacks.

 

3) you may end up with a Berserker who enters a frenzy, end it, and re-enter it all within 2 rounds. Conceptually I don't like this much.

Neither do I.

I don't like flaws, neither conceptual ones nor technical ones. Between stacking apr, stacking AC/save penalties, and this "intermittent" frenzy behaviour I see too many "flaws", but it may be just me.

 

If there are more viable ideas for Berserker, I'm very willing to try them.

I'm studying them right now.

 

Are you ok with me sending my tweaked files to Lawlight? I would really like to see what other testers think of berserker's preformance in game with these.

Sure, go ahead.