PfMW, Mantles & Absolute Immunity

[Ardanis]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

[Aranthys]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

The answer is : If you ask people not to exploit it, just make sure they wont be able to.

[Constantine]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

The answer is : If you ask people not to exploit it, just make sure they wont be able to.

I wasn't aware that the main purpose of this mod is to make people play fair.

[Demivrgvs]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

The answer is : If you ask people not to exploit it, just make sure they wont be able to.

I wasn't aware that the main purpose of this mod is to make people play fair.

It's not the main purpose, but at the same time I cannot see why it shouldn't be one of its goals.

 

I've blocked many exploits in past versions (PI, Simulacrum, ...) and V3 is currently blocking even more (MI vs AoE spells, self targeted spells bypassing MR, ...). I actually think that playing fair end up also being more satisfying once you get used to it (I once was a cheesy power player thus I speak for experience).

 

 

Regarding what we can do with Mantles and Absolute Immunity I'll let you players discuss it but:

- Ardanis is right, we can't have Mantles grant both weapon immunity and spell immunity because the AI would handle it quite badly (because it would be both a spell protection and a combat protection)

- we can instead have Absolute Immunity grant both weapon immunity and elemental/magic damage immunity because the AI would correctly counter it with Breach

[Salk]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

The answer is : If you ask people not to exploit it, just make sure they wont be able to.

I wasn't aware that the main purpose of this mod is to make people play fair.

 

I don't think it should be, in fact.

 

Fighting exploits is a useless battle, which often sacrifices more important gameplay aspects in its name.

 

People that do take advantage of exploitations are - in my opinion - just cheating, despite doing it within the "rules".

 

That's why I sometimes feel that the argument "The AI is just using at best the means that the game has provided for both players and opponents" nears dangerously that border.

[Aranthys]

Problem is, this is exploitable by a PC player by using normal melee weapons.

Something that the IA can't do.

Perhaps the answer should be 'don't exploit it'? After all, it's not like you can unintentionally make an advantage of using mundane weapons.

The answer is : If you ask people not to exploit it, just make sure they wont be able to.

I wasn't aware that the main purpose of this mod is to make people play fair.

If you think about it, what would be different if pfmw granted imunity to all weapons.

One think : a player would no longer be able to cheese by using non-magical weapon to defeat SCSII AI.

That's it. Nothing else.

[Ardanis]

Agreed with Salk. Imo relying on cheese - pure cheese - is people's own business.

 

Fixing MI doesn't fall into there, because this one can show itself even when you don't want it to - say you use MI to defend against meleer and someone blasts you with a Fireball. It's never been your intention to absorb FB but it happened anyway.

On the other hand, you can't happen to equip normal weapon to kill PFMW, you only do so if you want to.

 

But honestly I just don't care much about exploiting PFWM, so do as you feel like. Same goes for blind thieves, I didn't even knew about it until I saw this thread.

[Demivrgvs]

I wasn't aware that the main purpose of this mod is to make people play fair.

I don't think it should be, in fact.

 

Fighting exploits is a useless battle, which often sacrifices more important gameplay aspects in its name.

 

People that do take advantage of exploitations are - in my opinion - just cheating, despite doing it within the "rules".

Yeah, but I'd like to point out that there are different types of "exploits":

a) the recently discussed exploit of casting Blindness on a thief to have it hide in plain sight is an exploit that the player can experience almost only on purpose; some goes for players who recharge the spellbook suing PI+Spell Trap;

b) PfMW doesn't need a particular combo or hidden engine bug to be exploited by players, players are actually "forced to exploit it" simply by casting it and using it against an AI which can't cope with it.

 

Type a) exploits may not be a problem when it comes to SR (though I do like to prevent them if it's not too much hassle and it doesn't ruin the gameplay), but type b) exploits are something that effectively affects SR and its spell system.

 

If you think about it, what would be different if pfmw granted imunity to all weapons.

One think : a player would no longer be able to cheese by using non-magical weapon to defeat SCSII AI.

That's it. Nothing else.

I agree with Aranthys on this.

 

 

Edit:

Fixing MI doesn't fall into there, because this one can show itself even when you don't want it to - say you use MI to defend against meleer and someone blasts you with a Fireball. It's never been your intention to absorb FB but it happened anyway.

Ardanis, stop reading my mind!! You posted just while I was writing and you actually used a better example for what I was going o say!

 

On the other hand, you can't happen to equip normal weapon to kill PFMW, you only do so if you want to.

Only half true...you have to intentionally exploit it when PfMW is used by the AI, but when PfMW is used by you it just happens to be exploited. As you say for MI, it may be not your intention but PfMW in your hands is just like Absolute Immunity because the AI can't use normal weapons against you.

[yarpen]

Only half true...you have to intentionally exploit it when PfMW is used by the AI, but when PfMW is used by you it just happens to be exploited. As you say for MI, it may be not your intention but PfMW in your hands is just like Absolute Immunity because the AI can't use normal weapons against you.

Thanks god that someone spotted it!!! Begging for +2 protection. Or even +3. So then there is:

Lesser mantle (6th level): protection against +3 weapons

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons

Greater Mantle (8th level) protection against +5 weapons, maybe a sort of protection against magic?

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against all sort of weapons connected with immunity to energy (elements + magic)

 

So here you have your powerful protection (weapons greater than +3 are hard to obtain, and you've got some defence against medium-high level adventurers or for example... guards from Saradush) so I think that's quite resonable defence against fighters and still it's non-cheese uber pfmw. Now as you can see progress is quite noticeable - all of protection levels are significant. I don't know, maybe adding additional feature like:

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons, protection against 1st level spells (or maybe 20% energy resistance?)

Greater Mantle (8th level): protection against +5 weapons, protection against 1-2 level spells

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against any weapons, protection against 1-4 level spells (or maybe even 5?)

[Aranthys]

Only half true...you have to intentionally exploit it when PfMW is used by the AI, but when PfMW is used by you it just happens to be exploited. As you say for MI, it may be not your intention but PfMW in your hands is just like Absolute Immunity because the AI can't use normal weapons against you.

Thanks god that someone spotted it!!! Begging for +2 protection. Or even +3. So then there is:

Lesser mantle (6th level): protection against +3 weapons

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons

Greater Mantle (8th level) protection against +5 weapons, maybe a sort of protection against magic?

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against all sort of weapons connected with immunity to energy (elements + magic)

 

So here you have your powerful protection (weapons greater than +3 are hard to obtain, and you've got some defence against medium-high level adventurers or for example... guards from Saradush) so I think that's quite resonable defence against fighters and still it's non-cheese uber pfmw. Now as you can see progress is quite noticeable - all of protection levels are significant. I don't know, maybe adding additional feature like:

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons, protection against 1st level spells (or maybe 20% energy resistance?)

Greater Mantle (8th level): protection against +5 weapons, protection against 1-2 level spells

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against any weapons, protection against 1-4 level spells (or maybe even 5?)

The problem is as follows : in ToB, you have access to +5 / +6 weapons. That means, you can only have Greater mantle & Absolute immunity as a mage to protect you.

The problem is that, in ToB, most mages are much MUCH easier to kill since you have access to :

- Timestop

- Spellstrike.

 

Both combined means that the enemy mages become quite easy to handle.

What you're suggesting would :

- Change pretty much nothing in first part of SoA

- Make the end of SoA much easier

- Make ToB mages much, much easier.

 

I'm sorry but i'll have to disagree with your proposal.

[Salk]

Various comments:

 

Yes, Demivrgvs. You are right about pointing out that there are two different kind of exploits: the ones that the player seeks to take advantage of on purpouse and the ones that just "happen" (these could be perceived actually almost as "bugs"). I agree that the latter should be somehow fixed by SR.

 

What I don't like is this eternal crusade for perfecting the odds and tweaking spells in order to give the AI the best possible chances of victory.

 

This should be the job of AI mods (and, for my taste, without exasperating this aspect either: it is known that I oppose openly the detectable items, for example).

 

We are building SR with the (wrong) assumption that we are all "power players". This assumption is also present in the philosophy of SCS so that a player that doesn't want a stupid AI ends up fighting an almost infallible killing machine (best possible spells for the level cast at best possible time, detection of the players' protection so that the attacks are always "intelligent" -> no "waste" of resources, etc. etc.). Of course, there is modularity so we don't have to install those components that raise the tactical challenge too much so this is acceptable.

 

But SR is a mod also for players that don't use SCS or other AI enhancing mods so I don't think you should reason like:

 

"Players can equip a non magical weapon so that they can hurt enemies that have PfMW while the AI can not. We must "fix" this.."

 

This is not a problem that should concern SR (and by the way, I don't think it is exploitation, in that case above).

[Shaitan]

Only half true...you have to intentionally exploit it when PfMW is used by the AI, but when PfMW is used by you it just happens to be exploited. As you say for MI, it may be not your intention but PfMW in your hands is just like Absolute Immunity because the AI can't use normal weapons against you.

Thanks god that someone spotted it!!! Begging for +2 protection. Or even +3. So then there is:

Lesser mantle (6th level): protection against +3 weapons

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons

Greater Mantle (8th level) protection against +5 weapons, maybe a sort of protection against magic?

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against all sort of weapons connected with immunity to energy (elements + magic)

 

So here you have your powerful protection (weapons greater than +3 are hard to obtain, and you've got some defence against medium-high level adventurers or for example... guards from Saradush) so I think that's quite resonable defence against fighters and still it's non-cheese uber pfmw. Now as you can see progress is quite noticeable - all of protection levels are significant. I don't know, maybe adding additional feature like:

Mantle (7th level): protection against +4 weapons, protection against 1st level spells (or maybe 20% energy resistance?)

Greater Mantle (8th level): protection against +5 weapons, protection against 1-2 level spells

Absolute Immunity (9th level): protection against any weapons, protection against 1-4 level spells (or maybe even 5?)

The problem is as follows : in ToB, you have access to +5 / +6 weapons. That means, you can only have Greater mantle & Absolute immunity as a mage to protect you.

The problem is that, in ToB, most mages are much MUCH easier to kill since you have access to :

- Timestop

- Spellstrike.

 

Both combined means that the enemy mages become quite easy to handle.

What you're suggesting would :

- Change pretty much nothing in first part of SoA

- Make the end of SoA much easier

- Make ToB mages much, much easier.

 

I'm sorry but i'll have to disagree with your proposal.

...And when it comes down to business I think DavidW convinced many of us not to touch PfMW mainly due to the fact that BG2 isn't PnP/Mages should still be able to yield some resistance/It seriously messes the AI

 

Regarding cheats/exploits: I think we all should drop this discussion as I feel it is up to the player him(her)self. I don't see why SR should fall into the same trap as Improved Anvil did.

 

Cheers

[Jarno Mikkola]

If you think about it, what would be different if PfMW granted immunity to all weapons.

One think : a player would no longer be able to cheese by using non-magical weapon to defeat SCSII AI.

That's it. Nothing else.

I agree with Aranthys on this.

Ouh, I see a few things at least.

If PfMW would also... it's name would need to be changed to Protection from Weapons.

The enemy summons have no usable weapons.

 

PS, the name of the spell is: Protection from Magical Weapons=PfMW, not pfmw, PMW, LOL or :LOL: so could you please people be more careful or is your AI just IA's.

 

(and by the way, I don't think it is exploitation, in that case above).

I agree.

[yarpen]

I still don't see why wizards are allowed to be completely immune at 6th spell level. Just find a reason. As Ardanis said, I don't think that it would totaly ruin everything, as Aranthyrs says. Maybe fighters on appropriate level should gain 1000000hp, just because that's unbalanced? Thieves too.

 

I also don't like this SCS script traits. There's no diviner in-game, because diviner cannot realise proper player-killing programme. I don't want SR to go this way. I was always thinking about this mod as opposition, now wizards and clerics have got a lot of options - they can change you into squirrel or just spam you with fireballs, summon horde of ogres - and that's cool. We should keep on this.

 

I hope that even if Demi decides to do as DavidW or Aranthyrs are talking about - there would be an allowance for creating mini-mod which changes Protection from Weapons spells, which could be fully compatible with SR. Okay?

[Shaitan]

I think Demi could be convinced to make an extra component taking care of PfMW. Or provide something else for you

 

Cheers