PfMW, Mantles & Absolute Immunity

[Ardanis]

We are building SR with the (wrong) assumption that we are all "power players".

I don't, it doesn't take a power player to realize that PfMW used by him is just like Absolute Immunity.

That's exactly how I came to perceive PFMW. Both AI and myself pretend nobody has normal weapons and I'm fine with it.

Again, I absolutely don't care if PFMW will become PFW, as it won't make the slightest difference to me. Rogue Rebalancing would be hurt, however, as it does have measures to counter PFMW with normal weaponry.

[DarkWon]

Well let's list the current spells and how I would modify them

PFMW : Grants immunity to all weapons, lasts 3 rounds

Mantle : Grants immunity to all weapons, lasts 4 rounds.

Improved Mantle : Grants Immunity to all weapons / Immunity against spells level 4 or lower. Lasts 5 rounds

Absolute Immunity : Grants Immunity to all weapons / All spells level 4 or lower / All damage type. Lasts 5 rounds

 

What Aranthys suggests sounds good to me. In fact with the 3 round PfMW the only other change I consider really vital is making them all protect against normal weapons concurrently.

 

Honestly, ever heard of Drizzt or Elminster, not to mention Gods like Bhaal carrying round a normal sword just in case their +5/+6 one doesn't work? Its stupid and it breaks immersion for me.

 

I would rather sit around being bombarded by AdHW and Meteor Swarm for 20 rounds than carry a normal weapon.

[Salk]

Fact is:

 

in AD&D and Baldur's Gate there are two distinctive spells:

 

Protection from Normal Weapons

 

and

 

Protection from Magical Weapons

 

As long as there is this dichotomy, it is not possible to allow for the first to extend its protection also to non magical weapons.

 

I am against PfMW granting protection also to non magical weapons.

[Shaitan]

I normally carry with me (on fighters at least) normal weapons. All the way to the Throne.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I normally carry with me (on fighters at least) normal weapons. All the way to the Throne.

 

Me too. Hacking a high level PfMW-ed mage to pieces with a mundane sword is very satisfying.

 

As Ardanis pointed out, this is precisely why some RR opponents carry non-magical weapons in addition to their enchanted gear.

[Demivrgvs]

I normally carry with me (on fighters at least) normal weapons. All the way to the Throne.

 

Me too. Hacking a high level PfMW-ed mage to pieces with a mundane sword is very satisfying.

 

As Ardanis pointed out, this is precisely why some RR opponents carry non-magical weapons in addition to their enchanted gear.

Point taken, I'll let PfMW vulnerable to normal weapons then.

[Demivrgvs]

I've just take a look at Planescape Torment spells, and found out there's a 7th level version of Mantle there that would be utterly cool to implement somehow within BG.

 

Is there anyone who can check for me how Guardian Mantle works within Planescape Torment? Does it use opcodes which we also have within BG?

[Aranthys]

I've just take a look at Planescape Torment spells, and found out there's a 7th level version of Mantle there that would be utterly cool to implement somehow within BG.

 

Is there anyone who can check for me how Guardian Mantle works within Planescape Torment? Does it use opcodes which we also have within BG?

Aye, this implementation is quite nice

[Aranthys]

Can't you use the "on hit" code ?

You could have something like :

"Every time the enemy hits the caster, he must save at -x or be stunned for 1 round"

 

or "Every time the enemy hits the caster, he has to save at -x or be :

- slowed

- blinded

- other fun effects.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Can't you use the "on hit" code ?

Well, not really, as the casting would be interrupted at every turn... at least with two opponents... and the party usually can have 6.

Of course it would be a different thing if the effect would be affect the current hit, as then the attacker could just take a second with -20 to Thaco if he didn't make a save throw.

[Demivrgvs]

Can't you use the "on hit" code ?

Well, not really, as the casting would be interrupted at every turn... at least with two opponents... and the party usually can have 6.

Of course it would be a different thing if the effect would be affect the current hit, as then the attacker could just take a second with -20 to Thaco if he didn't make a save throw.

Just tried, to be sure, and as I suspected the spell is cast only after the mage is hit...thus we can't achieve what PS:T Guardian Mantle did. Furthermore, because apparently I had no other alternative I installed Planescape and looked into it...if I'm not wrong the spell effects are hardcoded within an opcode which uses bam and effects at the same time.

 

P.S Wow, lot of cool animations in this game though!

[Aranthys]

Can't you use the "on hit" code ?

Well, not really, as the casting would be interrupted at every turn... at least with two opponents... and the party usually can have 6.

Of course it would be a different thing if the effect would be affect the current hit, as then the attacker could just take a second with -20 to Thaco if he didn't make a save throw.

Just tried, to be sure, and as I suspected the spell is cast only after the mage is hit...thus we can't achieve what PS:T Guardian Mantle did. Furthermore, because apparently I had no other alternative I installed Planescape and looked into it...if I'm not wrong the spell effects are hardcoded within an opcode which uses bam and effects at the same time.

 

P.S Wow, lot of cool animations in this game though!

Well... you could always modify mantle to behave this way :

- Lasts longer than protection from magical weapons

- Whenever the caster is hit in melee, the opponent has to save at -X or suffer from X effect.

 

I am SURE that DavidW would love to have his mages use this. Sure, you can wack at the stoneskined mage.

But if you try just to destroy the stoneskin without getting rid of the mantle... well, your melee characters will get obliterated.

 

Have mantle lower damage taken from physical sources by 50% (Set), retaliate on enemies hitting you with disabling effects (Stun, Confusion, Blindness & the like)

You could even make it this way :

 

[renamed Pfmw] :

Lasts 5 rounds

Grants +

When hit, opponent must

- save vs spells at -3 or gets blinded (-10 to THAC0) for 3 rounds

- save vs spells at -3 or gets crippled (Set attacks per round to 1 & lowers movement rate by 50% for 3 rounds)

 

Mantle of <name fitting effect> [Mantle]

Lasts 5 rounds

When hit, opponent must

- save vs spells at -4 or gets blinded (-10 to THAC0) for 3 rounds

- save vs spells at -4 or gets crippled (Set attacks per round to 1 & lowers movement rate by 50% for 3 rounds)

- save vs spells at -4 or gets stunned for 1 round

 

Improved Mantle of <name fitting the effect> [improved mantle]

Lasts 5 rounds

When hit, opponent must :

- save vs spells at -4 or gets blinded (-10 to THAC0) for 3 rounds

- save vs spells at -4 or gets crippled (Set attacks per round to 1 & lowers movement rate by 50% for 3 rounds)

- save vs spells at -4 or gets stunned for 1 round

- save vs spells at -4 or is sent into a Labyrinth for 1-4 rounds, depending on attackers intelligence.

 

Now it's going to be fun watching melee characters with 5 attacks per round get completly disabled if they try to power through a mage defenses without you dispelling the defenses first.

 

If it's really needed, you could also grant the character that casts the mantle a "lower stoneskin effect" to prevent the first few blows from affecting him.

[Demivrgvs]

Well... you could always modify mantle to behave this way :

- Lasts longer than protection from magical weapons

- Whenever the caster is hit in melee, the opponent has to save at -X or suffer from X effect.

 

I am SURE that DavidW would love to have his mages use this. Sure, you can wack at the stoneskined mage.

But if you try just to destroy the stoneskin without getting rid of the mantle... well, your melee characters will get obliterated.

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

Have mantle lower damage taken from physical sources by 50% (Set), retaliate on enemies hitting you with disabling effects (Stun, Confusion, Blindness & the like)

 

...

First of all, if it isn't still clear after all these discussions...PfMW won't be changed! I've lowered its duration to 3 rounds, but other than that our hands are tied for many reasons we've discussed quite much.

 

Regarding Mantles I don't know how much we can change them without interfering with the AI, but I don't like much the idea of these spells stunning, blinding and crippling attackers. The solution adopted by Planescape was really cool and:

1) it wouldn't have interferred with the current behaviour of this spell

2) it would have kept its abjuration like aspect

 

Keep in mind that the aim of this mod isn't to completely change the system, I always try to stay as near as possible to the original behaviour.

[Aranthys]

Well... you could always modify mantle to behave this way :

- Lasts longer than protection from magical weapons

- Whenever the caster is hit in melee, the opponent has to save at -X or suffer from X effect.

 

I am SURE that DavidW would love to have his mages use this. Sure, you can wack at the stoneskined mage.

But if you try just to destroy the stoneskin without getting rid of the mantle... well, your melee characters will get obliterated.

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

Have mantle lower damage taken from physical sources by 50% (Set), retaliate on enemies hitting you with disabling effects (Stun, Confusion, Blindness & the like)

 

...

First of all, if it isn't still clear after all these discussions...PfMW won't be changed! I've lowered its duration to 3 rounds, but other than that our hands are tied for many reasons we've discussed quite much.

 

Regarding Mantles I don't know how much we can change them without interfering with the AI, but I don't like much the idea of these spells stunning, blinding and crippling attackers. The solution adopted by Planescape was really cool and:

1) it wouldn't have interferred with the current behaviour of this spell

2) it would have kept its abjuration like aspect

 

Keep in mind that the aim of this mod isn't to completely change the system, I always try to stay as near as possible to the original behaviour.

Well, I was just trying to provide some modifications that would make the spells interesting.

These modifications are not stranger than what you did with Clairvoyance

 

I'm trying to find a solution where :

- Enemy mages are not "Immune", but are hard to hit just by focusing them

- SCS Mages don't have trouble adapting to this modification

 

Current implementation of Pfmw is :

If (I am under PFMW)

Cast next attacking spell

else

Cast PFMW

 

I'm just trying to find alternatives to spell casters beeing immune to weapons, since a lot of people think it's reaking immersion, while still providing the casters of SCS with a good protection.

 

With the solution I'm proposing, the AI doesn't have to be tweaked by DavidW, and player are no longer suffering from having to face completly immune mages.

[Salk]

I am not so fond of that proposed change, Aranthys but nice trying to find new alternatives.