PfMW, Mantles & Absolute Immunity

[Demivrgvs]

Absolute Immunity

I noticed some of you didn't vote for 6), but some have. If those who didn't vote for it don't love it, but don't have huge issues with it either, and if we don't have any other suggestion to make this spell worth its spell slot I'd go for it. AI will last 5 rounds.

I'm assuming that Absolute Immunity will also have a saving throw bonus like the Mantle series of spells. Obviously an AC bonus for this spell would be trivial when no weapon can hit you.

Actually no, you know I don't like to have many similiar copies of the same spell. AC bonus would be indeed trivial, and trading save bonuses for 100% resistance to acid, cold, fire, electricity, and magic damage seems fair (should I add poions too? I'd say no though).

 

Your arrangement sounds good to me, for what that's worth.

Good.

 

 

Perhaps also being uninterruptable?

If you mean a Fireball shouldn't interrupt spellcasting while protected by Absolute Immunity, yes, I did it for the Protection from Energy serie, and I consider it a very important aspect of these spells.

[Kalindor]

Absolute Immunity

Actually no, you know I don't like to have many similiar copies of the same spell. AC bonus would be indeed trivial, and trading save bonuses for 100% resistance to acid, cold, fire, electricity, and magic damage seems fair (should I add poions too? I'd say no though).

 

I forgot about those resistances. Let's not make the third-most overpowered spell ever by adding a huge saving throw bonus as well.

 

P.S.: No to poison resistance.

[Ardanis]

trading save bonuses for 100% resistance to acid, cold, fire, electricity, and magic damage seems fair (should I add poions too? I'd say no though).

Just give it 'Protection from opcode [101]' = 12 ('HP damage')

And disease/poison as well, since the name is immunity and nobody has ever specified it can't refer to medicine as well.

 

I do think that level 9 spell should be able to grant true invincibility for a short time.

 

Regarding +6 weapons, I recall it had to do with immaterial BBoD. But then again, hard to say.

What would be nice is to have BBoD to bypass PFMW, but I can't say offhands how AI would react to such a change.

[Guest guest]

I do think that level 9 spell should be able to grant true invincibility for a short time.

 

I concur, I think. I mean I agree it would be appropriate. It is called 'absolute immunity' after all.

 

But if it's too powerful then no big deal.

 

Although, are we saying currently it does provide immunity to all things except poison? In that case may as well add that as then the name is fitting as I say, and it's not as though there's too many poisonous things out there anyway.

 

Time stop after all gives you oh so much...the following excerpt explains much (not that I doubt everyone already knows this; just that it puts things in perspective):

 

You get three rounds to do something useful. Maximize use of this time by (ab)using the Cast and Attack trick. Throwing Melf's Minute Meteors would do upwards of 135 damage (since all 15 hit), and Improved Hasted Fighter/Mages can go much higher.

 

While most spells cast during Time Stop will take effect only after it is gone, protection removal pays off immediately.

 

Enemy contingencies still have to wait, giving you the chance to finish the fight before they ever trigger.

 

This spell won't actually stop time, it just paralyzes everyone except the caster. Spell durations will continue to expire (and True Sight will continue to dispel illusions). The paralysis also means automatic success at attacks, no hit rolls needed. A Cleric/Mage could cast Harm and deliver two blows, ending the fight.

 

So, that's 3 rounds of TOTAL invulnerability plus all that other stuff noted there!

 

All you'd be doing is 6 rounds (is that what is agreed on now? Even 5 is fine, whatever) of that aspect of timestop, but none of the other perks.

 

(Do you even allow absolute immunity to protect from all weapons with the new version? Or is it different, e.g. +6 can penetrate or somesuch?)

 

Anyways, I don't know if the argument is persuasive enough or not, I don't really mind, whatever actually works in a balanced way. After all theory only achieves so much.

[DavidW]

Regarding +6 weapons, I recall it had to do with immaterial BBoD. But then again, hard to say.

What would be nice is to have BBoD to bypass PFMW, but I can't say offhands how AI would react to such a change.

 

Technically, it won't cause major problems for the AI - nothing will break and no-one will do anything hopelessly dumb (the worst that would happen is that mages with their own BBoD won't use it as effectively as they should). On the other hand, it will make wizards horribly vulnerable given that the AI won't realise that only Absolute Immunity can protect them from BBoD.

[Kalindor]

Time stop after all gives you oh so much...the following excerpt explains much (not that I doubt everyone already knows this; just that it puts things in perspective):

 

You get three rounds to do something useful. Maximize use of this time by (ab)using the Cast and Attack trick. Throwing Melf's Minute Meteors would do upwards of 135 damage (since all 15 hit), and Improved Hasted Fighter/Mages can go much higher.

 

While most spells cast during Time Stop will take effect only after it is gone, protection removal pays off immediately.

 

Enemy contingencies still have to wait, giving you the chance to finish the fight before they ever trigger.

 

This spell won't actually stop time, it just paralyzes everyone except the caster. Spell durations will continue to expire (and True Sight will continue to dispel illusions). The paralysis also means automatic success at attacks, no hit rolls needed. A Cleric/Mage could cast Harm and deliver two blows, ending the fight.

 

So, that's 3 rounds of TOTAL invulnerability plus all that other stuff noted there!

 

All you'd be doing is 6 rounds (is that what is agreed on now? Even 5 is fine, whatever) of that aspect of timestop, but none of the other perks.

 

(Do you even allow absolute immunity to protect from all weapons with the new version? Or is it different, e.g. +6 can penetrate or somesuch?)

 

Anyways, I don't know if the argument is persuasive enough or not, I don't really mind, whatever actually works in a balanced way. After all theory only achieves so much.

 

This is a good reason why Absolute Immunity should provide a duration much longer than Time Stop. After all, Time Stop basically makes you invincible for the duration in addition to rendering all foes useless (all foes to speak of, anyway).

[Guest guest]

This is a good reason why Absolute Immunity should provide a duration much longer than Time Stop. After all, Time Stop basically makes you invincible for the duration in addition to rendering all foes useless (all foes to speak of, anyway).

 

Right, yeah, I forgot those two perks: Not only can no one react to you in timestop, i.e. cannot dispel it or anything, but Absolute immunity keeps all creatures moving and also is itself susceptible to being dispelled for the entire duration it could be active for.

[Demivrgvs]

Black Blade of Disaster vs. PfMW like protections

Regarding +6 weapons, I recall it had to do with immaterial BBoD. But then again, hard to say.

What would be nice is to have BBoD to bypass PFMW, but I can't say offhands how AI would react to such a change.

Technically, it won't cause major problems for the AI - nothing will break and no-one will do anything hopelessly dumb (the worst that would happen is that mages with their own BBoD won't use it as effectively as they should). On the other hand, it will make wizards horribly vulnerable given that the AI won't realise that only Absolute Immunity can protect them from BBoD.

Actually PnP BBoD would bypass Absolute Immunity too. Anyway my main concern is that PnP BBoD would be overkill against mages in BG, wouldn't it end all the mage duels in a matter of seconds?

 

My alternative solution if we really want to implement PnP BBoD would be to make all the damage inflicted by it magical, and stopped by Protection from Magic Energy or Protection from Energy (and eventually Absolute Immunity too if we opt for what we're discussing lately). But DavidW's opinion on this matter is almost law for me.

 

Absolute Immunity vs. Time Stop

This is a good reason why Absolute Immunity should provide a duration much longer than Time Stop. After all, Time Stop basically makes you invincible for the duration in addition to rendering all foes useless (all foes to speak of, anyway).

Right, yeah, I forgot those two perks: Not only can no one react to you in timestop, i.e. cannot dispel it or anything, but Absolute immunity keeps all creatures moving and also is itself susceptible to being dispelled for the entire duration it could be active for.

Yeah, you do have good points, and it's exactly why I openly voted to find a way to improve Absolute Immunity.

 

Anyway, let's say one thing that I'd like to be clear: Time Stop is brokenly overpowered within BG, and I don't want all 9th level spells be as powerful as this cheesy spell. TS wouldn't be so cheesy imo if it wasn't for the damn feature which allows the caster to always hit the targets, because that's the source of most exploits:

* cast and attack with 9apr with Energy Blades would be even worse than your example with MMM

* Shapechange - Mind Flyer form - Devour Brain = sure death of multiple targets

* Harm with a sure hit

* Assassination with sure hits

* casting TS few rounds after the opponent casts PfMW = PfMW ends during TS and you're free to disintegrate the target in melee

[Ardanis]

My alternative solution if we really want to implement PnP BBoD would be to make all the damage inflicted by it magical, and stopped by Protection from Magic Energy or Protection from Energy

Which would effectively eliminate the overkill threat, since every wizard in SCS worthy of BBoD is under PFME. Yes.

 

TS wouldn't be so cheesy imo if it wasn't for the damn feature which allows the caster to always hit the targets, because that's the source of most exploits:

* cast and attack with 9apr with Energy Blades would be even worse than your example with MMM

* Shapechange - Mind Flyer form - Devour Brain = sure death of multiple targets

* Harm with a sure hit

* Assassination with sure hits

* casting TS few rounds after the opponent casts PfMW = PfMW ends during TS and you're free to disintegrate the target in melee

I may be blamed for the last one exclusively, and only partially anyway.

[Kalindor]

Anyway, let's say one thing that I'd like to be clear: Time Stop is brokenly overpowered within BG, and I don't want all 9th level spells be as powerful as this cheesy spell. TS wouldn't be so cheesy imo if it wasn't for the damn feature which allows the caster to always hit the targets, because that's the source of most exploits:

* cast and attack with 9apr with Energy Blades would be even worse than your example with MMM

* Shapechange - Mind Flyer form - Devour Brain = sure death of multiple targets

* Harm with a sure hit

* Assassination with sure hits

* casting TS few rounds after the opponent casts PfMW = PfMW ends during TS and you're free to disintegrate the target in melee

 

Now, I am no BG2 modding expert and I hate to make implementation suggestions, but here goes anyhow...

What about making Time Stop cast a second spell with PFMW + PFNW effects using a projectile that affects everyone in the area for the same duration as Time Stop? This would cause any attacks during Time Stop to be ineffective.

[Demivrgvs]

Black Blade of Disaster vs. PfMW like protections

My alternative solution if we really want to implement PnP BBoD would be to make all the damage inflicted by it magical, and stopped by Protection from Magic Energy or Protection from Energy

Which would effectively eliminate the overkill threat, since every wizard in SCS worthy of BBoD is under PFME. Yes.

Probably, but as I said, I'll let players decide if they like this feature, and DavidW if I can implement it.

 

 

Absolute Immunity vs. Time Stop

Anyway, let's say one thing that I'd like to be clear: Time Stop is brokenly overpowered within BG, and I don't want all 9th level spells be as powerful as this cheesy spell. TS wouldn't be so cheesy imo if it wasn't for the damn feature which allows the caster to always hit the targets, because that's the source of most exploits:

* cast and attack with 9apr with Energy Blades would be even worse than your example with MMM

* Shapechange - Mind Flyer form - Devour Brain = sure death of multiple targets

* Harm with a sure hit

* Assassination with sure hits

* casting TS few rounds after the opponent casts PfMW = PfMW ends during TS and you're free to disintegrate the target in melee

Now, I am no BG2 modding expert and I hate to make implementation suggestions, but here goes anyhow...

What about making Time Stop cast a second spell with PFMW + PFNW effects using a projectile that affects everyone in the area for the same duration as Time Stop? This would cause any attacks during Time Stop to be ineffective.

Well, the problem shouldn't be how to implement this (setting apr to 0 is probably a smoother way), but rather deciding to implement such a noticeable tweak. Reaching a consensus on this isn't easy imo, and I also fear how the AI would handle it.

[Salk]

Well, the problem shouldn't be how to implement this (setting apr to 0 is probably a smoother way), but rather deciding to implement such a noticeable tweak. Reaching a consensus on this isn't easy imo, and I also fear how the AI would handle it.

 

The tweak would indeed have a great impact on vanilla TS.

 

And That's exactly why I'd like to see that happen.

[Shaitan]

Well, the problem shouldn't be how to implement this (setting apr to 0 is probably a smoother way), but rather deciding to implement such a noticeable tweak. Reaching a consensus on this isn't easy imo, and I also fear how the AI would handle it.

 

The tweak would indeed have a great impact on vanilla TS.

 

And That's exactly why I'd like to see that happen.

Well after some hesitation I agree.

[mercurier]

Well, the problem shouldn't be how to implement this (setting apr to 0 is probably a smoother way), but rather deciding to implement such a noticeable tweak. Reaching a consensus on this isn't easy imo, and I also fear how the AI would handle it.

Just my silly concern... Is seeting apr to 0 completely safe? MMM and Energy Blade can modify apr, and several items modify apr, too. Possibly adding protection from opcode: set apr in additional to seeting apr to 0 would help*, though not sure. Or, shall we try disabling weapon bottons?

 

*: In case of successive casting of TS, I'm afraind we need this: remove protection from opcode: set apr -> set apr to 0 -> apply protection from opcode: set apr

 

PS: the same issue also applies to Project Image.

[DavidW]

Black Blade of Disaster vs. PfMW like protections

My alternative solution if we really want to implement PnP BBoD would be to make all the damage inflicted by it magical, and stopped by Protection from Magic Energy or Protection from Energy

Which would effectively eliminate the overkill threat, since every wizard in SCS worthy of BBoD is under PFME. Yes.

Probably, but as I said, I'll let players decide if they like this feature, and DavidW if I can implement it.

 

 

Well, two issues:

 

(i) can wizards adequately defend against BBoD? Yes, probably. They'll have PfME running: it's a core buff for high-level mages, and since it's longlasting, it's cast whatever your buff options are. They don't carry spares, nor recast it, but this isn't crucial, since by the time you've managed to remove PfME, you've torn far enough through a wizard's buffs that you could hurt him anyway. So it's probably mildly exploitable but not a real problem.

(ii) can wizards adequately use BBoD? Suboptimally, but not disastrously. They will blindly attack enemies who have PfME running. I could allow for this, but I'm a little reluctant to as it's slightly fiddly, and more importantly, it's reasonably expensive in script space (which I'm starting to get nervous about - SCS scripts just grow and grow.)

 

Well, the problem shouldn't be how to implement this [no attacks in Timestop - DW] (setting apr to 0 is probably a smoother way), but rather deciding to implement such a noticeable tweak. Reaching a consensus on this isn't easy imo, and I also fear how the AI would handle it.

 

I mostly don't use attacks in timestop, not because I think it's cheesy (I still don't exactly understand what that means) but because I think it's relatively dull as a strategy. It's one of these things I allow myself on a very occasional basis for variety's sake: I think the only enemies who do it in SCS are Irenicus in Hell and Melissan (she has it in vanilla ToB too). Mages also chuck Meteors while timestopped; that's not really deliberate, more just how the script works out. I'm not convinced it's even optimal for them, since they forfeit the chance to disrupt spellcasting; on the other hand, I think it's more realistic (and certainly, iirc, more in line with PnP Timestop) to fire missile weapons and leave them hanging than to actually hack at an enemy. I deliberately don't give the Yellow Dragon Timestops because I thought being torn up by a dragon in timestop and (a) taking damage but (b) not being killed outright was a bit unrealistic.

 

If TS blocked physical attacks, it would have only a cosmetic effect on the Irenicus battle: Jon will pointlessly slash at you, but he'll still cast spells, and it's not as if he wouldn't have cast timestop were it not for the melee attacks. It will have a slightly more significant effect on the Melissan battle, due to Ascension not SCS: since the player gets immunity to Timestop, using Timestop is a risky business and losing the ability to melee changes the calculus. It will waste wizards' Meteors, if you block missile attacks too. All this assumes I don't actually allow for it in the code; I might be able to, but no promises.

 

I guess the bottom line is that I (mostly) don't use Timestop for the sort of tricks that people think are abuses, so I'm not going to be much affected if they're blocked. SCS mages, with very few exceptions, just use Timestop to chuck lots of spells at once.