PfMW, Mantles & Absolute Immunity

[Demivrgvs]

I'm trying to find a solution where :

- Enemy mages are not "Immune", but are hard to hit just by focusing them

- SCS Mages don't have trouble adapting to this modification

 

Current implementation of Pfmw is :

If (I am under PFMW)

Cast next attacking spell

else

Cast PFMW

 

I'm just trying to find alternatives to spell casters beeing immune to weapons, since a lot of people think it's reaking immersion, while still providing the casters of SCS with a good protection.

 

With the solution I'm proposing, the AI doesn't have to be tweaked by DavidW, and player are no longer suffering from having to face completly immune mages.

As I already said, I wouldn't be so sure that DavidW is ok with this. I don't think removing the immunity to enchanted weapons and replacing it with a powerful retaliation effect is so AI friendly as you say. SCS mages would cast these spells assuming to be almost immune, not to have a beefed up version of Fire Shield.

 

Last but not least, the whole idea of using a "cast spell on hit" is good imo, but this is an abjuration spell, and I really can't see an abjuration spell blinding, stunning or crippling. Point taken about Clairvoyance, but at least I've made it work as an existing divination spell, with effects appropriate to that school.

 

The easiest way to make these spells mor appealing remaining true to their school for example may be adding an AC and/or saves bonuses. It wouldn't be much "new" or unique , but Mantle would surely become highly attractive with a +4 to all saves and/or a +4 to AC.

[DarkWon]

The +AC is interesting, but again...the AI is going to cast this spell and only this spell, assuming they are now immune while in reality they will simply now have AC 6!

 

If they have Ghost/Spirit armor on too then sure it will be an ok combo, but does every NPC mage cast ghost armor/spirit armor? I don't know the answer to that.

 

Unless they do then the nerfed duration still looks like best option

[Demivrgvs]

The +AC is interesting, but again...the AI is going to cast this spell and only this spell, assuming they are now immune while in reality they will simply now have AC 6!

 

If they have Ghost/Spirit armor on too then sure it will be an ok combo, but does every NPC mage cast ghost armor/spirit armor? I don't know the answer to that.

 

Unless they do then the nerfed duration still looks like best option

Actually I was suggesting an additional bonus for Mantle and Improved Mantle, not to replace the immunity with a high AC bonus. For example Mantle may grant immunity to weapons of +3 enchantment and lower and +3/+4 to saves and/or +3/+4 to saves.

 

PfMW instead will have nerfed duration yes, as it seems almost the only option we have, and most players voted to lower it instead of increasing Mantle's one.

[Aranthys]

Well, David said that he would prefer pfmw not to change, and longer durations for mantle spells.

[Demivrgvs]

I'd like to settle things once and for all (at least for V3) because this and antimagic attacks behaviour are the only things stopping me from closing V3.

 

If I'm not wrong the possible things to do are:

1) PfMw lasts 3 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 4 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 5 rounds (PfMW nerfed, Absolute Immunity lasts longer)

2) PfMw lasts 4 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 5 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 6 rounds (PfMW untouched, the other spells last longer)

3) (Improved) Mantle may get an incentive in order to make them appealing, what about an AC and/or saves bonuses?

4) Absloute Immunity may get an incentive in order to make it more appealing, and I'd probably go for immunity to all forms of damage

5) I already did it for V1 and DavidW seems to like it thus (Improved) Mantle will protect from +3/+4 weapons (instead of vanilla's +2/+3)

6) Absolute Immunity grants 'absolute' immunity, thus from +6 weapons too.

 

Let me know.

[Shaitan]

I'd like to settle things once and for all (at least for V3) because this and antimagic attacks behaviour are the only things stopping me from closing V3.

 

Yehaaa!

 

1) PfMw lasts 3 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 4 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 5 rounds (PfMW nerfed, Absolute Immunity lasts longer)

2) PfMw lasts 4 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 5 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 6 rounds (PfMW untouched, the other spells last longer)

I currently vote for 1) but I switch forth and back. I'd like to say: do what you want and people can comment it out or whatever.

 

3) (Improved) Mantle may get an incentive in order to make them appealing, what about an AC and/or saves bonuses?

I vote for save bonuses = greater incentive.

 

4) Absloute Immunity may get an incentive in order to make it more appealing, and I'd probably go for immunity to all forms of damage

 

5) I already did it for V1 and DavidW seems to like it thus (Improved) Mantle will protect from +3/+4 weapons (instead of vanilla's +2/+3)

 

6) Absolute Imunity grant 'absloute' immunity, thus from +6 weapons too.

 

Have a nice day

[Salk]

I also vote for 1).

 

I am not so fond about increasing the (Improved) Mantle's protection from +2/+3 to +3/+4., considering also that by 1) the spell will last longer.

 

A better incentive for (Improved) Mantle might be a non-detection ability.

 

I finally agree with Absolute Immunity protecting also from +6 weapons.

[DavidW]

Just to confirm that I will be incorporating 5-6 into SCS (and offering the change as a localised component)

[DarkWon]

I'd like to settle things once and for all (at least for V3) because this and antimagic attacks behaviour are the only things stopping me from closing V3.

 

If I'm not wrong the possible things to do are:

1) PfMw lasts 3 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 4 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 5 rounds (PfMW nerfed, Absolute Immunity lasts longer)

2) PfMw lasts 4 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 5 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 6 rounds (PfMW untouched, the other spells last longer)

3) (Improved) Mantle may get an incentive in order to make them appealing, what about an AC and/or saves bonuses?

4) Absloute Immunity may get an incentive in order to make it more appealing, and I'd probably go for immunity to all forms of damage

5) I already did it for V1 and DavidW seems to like it thus (Improved) Mantle will protect from +3/+4 weapons (instead of vanilla's +2/+3)

6) Absolute Immunity grants 'absolute' immunity, thus from +6 weapons too.

 

Let me know.

 

They all sound good!

1) I prefer 3, 4 & 5 rounds respectively

 

7) ....they all protect from normal weapons too

[Demivrgvs]

I am not so fond about increasing the (Improved) Mantle's protection from +2/+3 to +3/+4., considering also that by 1) the spell will last longer.

Actually this is the only thing I was taking for granted. I also think DavidW needs this because else too many SoA weapons would bypass them and (Improved) Mantle would remain unappealing.

 

 

A better incentive for (Improved) Mantle might be a non-detection ability.

A protection from divinations within a combat protection doesn't sounds so well to me. Anyway, I can't, because for V4 Non-detection will have/need a dedicated secondary type.

 

 

They all sound good!

1) I prefer 3, 4 & 5 rounds respectively

 

7) ....they all protect from normal weapons too

Well, if by all you mean all except PfMW it's obvious. As I said, I strangely prefer what you suggest, but I really can't do it. RR's AI exploits PfMW weakness (which is very cool), and thus this aspect has to remain.

[Kalindor]

I'd like to settle things once and for all (at least for V3) because this and antimagic attacks behaviour are the only things stopping me from closing V3.

 

If I'm not wrong the possible things to do are:

1) PfMw lasts 3 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 4 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 5 rounds (PfMW nerfed, Absolute Immunity lasts longer)

2) PfMw lasts 4 rounds, (Improved) Mantle last 5 rounds, and Absolute Immunity lasts 6 rounds (PfMW untouched, the other spells last longer)

3) (Improved) Mantle may get an incentive in order to make them appealing, what about an AC and/or saves bonuses?

4) Absloute Immunity may get an incentive in order to make it more appealing, and I'd probably go for immunity to all forms of damage

5) I already did it for V1 and DavidW seems to like it thus (Improved) Mantle will protect from +3/+4 weapons (instead of vanilla's +2/+3)

6) Absolute Immunity grants 'absolute' immunity, thus from +6 weapons too.

 

Let me know.

 

I personally liked the idea of option 1 + 3 + 4 +5. There's also the possibility of making all of the Mantle spells protect against all weapons completely and give some sort of increasing saving throw bonus. That would make them hands-down more appealing than the lower level PfMW.

[Ardanis]

1, 3, 4, 5 as well.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, I have few hours to mod today and I'd like to close the two main discussions as soon as possible (at least for V3, I don't mind continuing to discuss everything for V4).

 

Here's what I'm going to do considering your feedback, and that any change must take into account the AI and make sure it can benefit from it too instead of being hindered by it.

 

 

PfMW

Retains the weakness to normal weapons (necessary for RR's AI compatibility), but lasts 3 rounds (most if not all of you voted for lowering it). I think on this we don't need much more discussions.

 

 

(Improved) Mantle

I'm currently thinking of describing these spells as a short lasting more powerful versions of the Cloak of Protection. Mantle grants immunity to +3 enchanted weapons or lower, plus +3 to both AC and saves. The Improved version grants immunity to +4 enchanted weapons or lower, plus +4 to both AC and saves. Both spells last 4 rounds. Is it ok?

 

 

Absolute Immunity

I noticed some of you didn't vote for 6), but some have. If those who didn't vote for it don't love it, but don't have huge issues with it either, and if we don't have any other suggestion to make this spell worth its spell slot I'd go for it. AI will last 5 rounds.

[Kalindor]

Absolute Immunity

I noticed some of you didn't vote for 6), but some have. If those who didn't vote for it don't love it, but don't have huge issues with it either, and if we don't have any other suggestion to make this spell worth its spell slot I'd go for it. AI will last 5 rounds.

 

I'm assuming that Absolute Immunity will also have a saving throw bonus like the Mantle series of spells. Obviously an AC bonus for this spell would be trivial when no weapon can hit you.

 

Your arrangement sounds good to me, for what that's worth.

[Icendoan]

Perhaps also being uninterruptable?

 

Icen