IR V3 - List of changes from V2 to V3

[Ardanis]

I think (or rather certain) we'll manage in that time.

[Demivrgvs]

This topic will remain active during the entire beta stage, as I'm sure a bunch of things will arise, and a few changes will be done here and there thanks to feedback.

 

I'll try to update the Item Index asap, but it's going to take quite a lot of time. In the meanwhile the first post on this topic remains the best way to check if an item is working as it should.

[Shaitan]

I still believe its x/day lesser Haste effect should be somehow replaced by a semi-equivalent on hit combat ability because all early game short swords (this, Ilbratha and Kundane) currently are too too much oriented to be only "off hand" weapons, but for now I left it unchanged.

 

What about adding extra on hit damage against priest classes?

[Thailog]

Ok I finally got IR V3 set up and running. Impressions are generally positive, I like most of the item changes. Here's some specific feedback:

 

I thought that the anarchic property of the Sword of Chaos was a nice touch in v2. Sad to see it gone in V3 although I like the new vampiric effect. Can't we have both? I suppose that there are only a few lawful enemies in BG2 (Baatezu fiends?) but the anarchic property fits very nicely due to the sword's background and lore. Perhaps you could also prevent lawful characters from wielding it?

 

The Enchantment Doesn't Affect Speed Factor of Weapons component is very nice. Finally, it makes sense that swinging a two handed sword, no matter how enchanted, is still going to be slower than using a dagger. By the way, does it apply to enemies too?

 

I decided to give the Revised Stores component a chance and instantly regretted it. Firstly, it seems to be affecting much more than just store items. In my game, a lot of the scrolls that were normally available from mages defeated in random encounters and such were gone. Stoneskin, for one seems nearly impossible to find. If IR is indeed doing this, then be so kind and mention it in more detail in the readme, instead of just saying "some items are moved around". Secondly, the price markup change is a bit too much. I'm getting 100 gp for selling a Battleaxe +1 which then costs 1400 gp in the same shop? Seriously, did you guys actually playtest this or did you simply decrease purchase prices to the max?

[Demivrgvs]

Sword of Chaos

I thought that the anarchic property of the Sword of Chaos was a nice touch in v2. Sad to see it gone in V3 although I like the new vampiric effect. Can't we have both? I suppose that there are only a few lawful enemies in BG2 (Baatezu fiends?) but the anarchic property fits very nicely due to the sword's background and lore. Perhaps you could also prevent lawful characters from wielding it?

I've restored vanilla's Vampiric effect because V3 in general tries to stay more close to vanilla than previous versions of IR, and because quite a lot of players complained about this particula item being changed back then. I'll think about your suggestion though.

 

Speed Factor

The Enchantment Doesn't Affect Speed Factor of Weapons component is very nice. Finally, it makes sense that swinging a two handed sword, no matter how enchanted, is still going to be slower than using a dagger. By the way, does it apply to enemies too?

Yes.

 

Revised Stores

I decided to give the Revised Stores component a chance and instantly regretted it. Firstly, it seems to be affecting much more than just store items. In my game, a lot of the scrolls that were normally available from mages defeated in random encounters and such were gone. Stoneskin, for one seems nearly impossible to find. If IR is indeed doing this, then be so kind and mention it in more detail in the readme, instead of just saying "some items are moved around".

From the readme: "Re-allocation of lootable items - Some potions and scrolls, as well as about three dozens of other items, are moved between crates, enemies and stores." Anyway, afaik you just have to look for a store "specialized in scrolls" (e.g. Lady Yuth) to get your hands on a Stoneskin scroll. It shouldn't be hard at all once you get to know how the new store system works.

 

Secondly, the price markup change is a bit too much. I'm getting 100 gp for selling a Battleaxe +1 which then costs 1400 gp in the same shop? Seriously, did you guys actually playtest this or did you simply decrease purchase prices to the max?

This is done on purpose to limit the amount of gold the party can accumulate, but values may need to be adjusted a little. Feedback from players will surely help us on this.

[Ardanis]

In my game, a lot of the scrolls that were normally available from mages defeated in random encounters and such were gone. Stoneskin, for one seems nearly impossible to find.

Magic is illegal in Athkatla, so... Most any scroll that could be obtained prior Spellhold can be found in Adventurer's Mart, albeit for high price. Roughly the same selection, available for cheaper, is scattered across other stores and loot.

 

Secondly, the price markup change is a bit too much. I'm getting 100 gp for selling a Battleaxe +1 which then costs 1400 gp in the same shop?

Sorry, I have forgotten to mention the price change in readme. This component is equal to installing ~Change store buying prices - Reduce to 67% (recommended)~ and ~Change store selling prices - Increase by 150% (recommended)~ components from Aurora's Boots and Shoes.

 

Seriously, did you guys actually playtest this or did you simply decrease purchase prices to the max?

I did playtest it.

 

I do think this component will have to be split in few, but this may not be easy. From your feedback, I assume that prices should go separately.

[Thailog]

From your feedback, I assume that prices should go separately.

 

That would be nice.

 

Also, it might not be a bad idea to tone things down bit. Maybe it's just me, but purchasing an item for 14 times its selling price doesn't seem right.

[Shaitan]

Taste varies.

 

I'm fond the store changes made in IR3. I find them both logical and needed. Compared to markets I've been to in the real world (Rome/London/Paris) it was common to see sellingprices rise like that. We just need an ability to haggle a bit. Making it a seperately component wouldn't hurt anyway.

 

I do like the "less scrolls available on corpses" stuff. I probably shouldn't have installed SCSII component giving me acces to more rare spells...

[Lawlight]

Taste varies.

 

I'm fond the store changes made in IR3. I find them both logical and needed. Compared to markets I've been to in the real world (Rome/London/Paris) it was common to see sellingprices rise like that. We just need an ability to haggle a bit. Making it a seperately component wouldn't hurt anyway.

 

I totally agree with Shaitan.

 

I really like your store component, Ardanis. Would it be possible to expand this component to alter Bg1 Stores too? Maybe all the missing Weapon Types not present in Bg1 (normal and +1 ones) could be added then too.

[Constantine]

Taste varies.

 

I'm fond the store changes made in IR3. I find them both logical and needed. Compared to markets I've been to in the real world (Rome/London/Paris) it was common to see sellingprices rise like that. We just need an ability to haggle a bit. Making it a seperately component wouldn't hurt anyway.

 

I do like the "less scrolls available on corpses" stuff. I probably shouldn't have installed SCSII component giving me acces to more rare spells...

Well, that's not entirely true. Think of the price you would get from selling some rare piece of art on the auction. This works the same for your hard earned artifacts - named enchanted weapons, rare mid-high level scrolls etc. In real life you would never sell something you know worth around 1000gp (that's a huge amount of wealth in the FR!) for the 10gp or even 100gp. It's insanity, and the storekeeper should know this just as you.

I'd vote for making separate component anyway.

[Ardanis]

Maybe it's just me, but purchasing an item for 14 times its selling price doesn't seem right.

This only appears to be the case in Maevar's guild. Innkeepers offer -5% less money than normal shops, and fences -10% less (but buy stolen items). Since Gorch is both, he suffers a total of -15% decrease.

 

Other cases of significant mark-up difference:

1) AM's spells - since magic is generally forbidden, selling it legally should involve a huge tax imo.

2) AM's potions - legend says he's from far away, so price includes delivery expenses.

3) ToB's merchants - I imagine that with war raging around, they want to get rid of their goods and get themselves safe out there.

[Thailog]

Balduran's items

 

I like the fact that all of these now grant MR (works really great on a Wizard Slayer) but I think the values could be tweaked a bit. In my view, it doesn't make much sense that Balduran's armor should grant less MR than his sword. My suggestions:

 

Helm: 3%

Cloak 10%

Shield: 7%

Plate: 15%

Sword: 5%

[deducter]

Regarding the item prices, I think the following things are logical:

 

1)Magic in Amn should be hugely expensive, since it is illegal. On the other hand, it is also the city of coin, and as long as you have the cash, it shouldn't be a problem. I do feel in the original game and even with mods like SCSII gold is way too freely available, it should not be possible to buy all desirable items from merchants. I believe that's why SCSII includes a component that ups the amount of gold required for obtaining the magic license or for paying Gaelen and getting to Act 3, to act as a gold sink. Those components would be obsolete were prices more reasonable.

 

2)Generally common enchanted items, potions, etc shouldn't sell too well, since they are common among adventures. Mid-low level scrolls should sell poorly since they are illegal goods. They are risky for merchants to buy, and why should they pay good money?

 

3)That said, it makes a lot of sense that certain supremely powerful items should command a very high price, and realistically only Ribald or maybe the Shadow Thieves would have the cash to buy them. I'm thinking of the +3 enchanted weapons or armor brought back from the Underdark, or even uniquely enchanted items but not too powerful ones like Saving Grace shield, etc. Also 7th level or higher scrolls are very powerful, and I can see how even the few illegal mages in Amn would be willing to pay good money for them. In general, I feel rare items should command a higher % selling price than common items.

 

4)Gems should sell fairly well too, I feel. They'd be like another form of cash, and I can see how merchants might buy and sell them without too much of a mark up. But this could be argued either way.

 

All of this said, I'm not sure whether it's even possible to code these things. The only thing I can think of is to have a specific merchant for gems, or a specific merchant to buy unique items, probably in the Adventurer's Mart. There'll also be a lot of work involved, and I would understand why these suggestions are too much.

[Ardanis]

Magic in Amn should be hugely expensive, since it is illegal. On the other hand, it is also the city of coin, and as long as you have the cash, it shouldn't be a problem.

Done both.

 

The rest of what you say - not with this engine. It can only understand three things - item's base type (no differentiation between mundane and enchanted swords), item's price (if it costs more to buy, then it costs equally more to sell as loot too), store's mark-up (the same for all items it can deal with).

[Shaitan]

What about doing something to the random loot? Getting a scroll of pierce magic from a ghast is perhaps a bit too much?

 

Cheers