IR V3 - List of changes from V2 to V3

[DarkWon]

Anyway, the problem here is that I don't see any explanation to justify throwing daggers having 2x dmg, can you give me one? I don't even see much reasons behind the 2x apr (it was indeed within 2ed rules, 3ed removed it) but I kept it because it's relatively more acceptable than the concept behind "throwing bastard swords" imo, and most of all it helps keep things varied and balanced. Axes/hammers get STR bonus, daggers/darts get higher apr (which is even better than STR bonus for characters like rogues and mages who are not supposed to have high STR), but making a tiny dagger deal more base dmg than a heavier axe or hammer makes little sense imo, and having both 2x apr and 2x dmg would surely ruin the balance between daggers and axes/hammers.

 

I've often puzzled over why the thrown versions of these weapons do bonus damage, and glad it was removed in 3E...

 

I can see why some people would be annoyed at some of the weapons being nerfed, its not exactly my idea of "realism" either that weapons are tiered to follow the difficulty level of the game. But, if thats Demi's desire then heck, its definitely not going to stop me using this mod, and it will only make the game harder imo (always a good thing!!).

 

p.s. did Strongarm get a nerf or relocation? v2's Strongarm is so powerful! I would choose it over a +5 bow for sure, and you can buy it straight out of chateau Irenicus

[J Beau]

Demi, I have taken your list and added some notes:

 

- Backbiter - Cursed

- Vampire's Revenge – REALLY cursed

- Kiel's Morningstar – Cursed

- Cleric's Staff – You say its usable by clerics, it’s not clear if its only usable by clerics. It’s only good for undead though.

 

That is on top of pre-existing ones:

- Azuredge- again, only good for undead

- Mace of Disruption – again, only good for undead. I think I see a pattern here hmmm.

- Root of the Problem – druid only

- Hammer of Thunderbolts – can you actually get this before the underdark. Even if you can it’s one of the hardest battles in the game.

- Wyrmcleaver – This one is useful even not fighting dragons and it’s a halberd.

- Dragonslayer – It was looking interesting, but I think you decided to nerf its slicing effect. Regardless it’s a long sword, one of the most common picks of the vanilla game.

- Flail of Ages – best of the bunch by far, but little different from vanilla as with long swords.

- Berserking Greatsword - Cursed

The cursed items are just that, cursed. If I can't put it down, I'm not picking it up. So I think my point stands, you haven't really balanced the underused items with respect to the traditional common items in the early game at least (long sword, 2-handed sword, flail, katana). I hope you don't use this as an excuse to do more nerfing. The one exception is the halberd, but you have to go through beholder-death to get it. I consider it along with the Illithid lair, a post underdark encounter.

[mikel123]

As for making the enchantment nerf an option on installation, I think that's a great idea.

 

As for why axes don't deal double damage, I have no idea. I've never played D&D and rely on other for info about the game itself.

 

I will say that the balance of the boomerang weapons is pretty clever, in my eyes. And as for why the Boomerang Dagger is better than a plain composite bow... I'm not sure what that argument is supposed to imply. Bows are weak in BG2, I think everyone agrees that. Just because composite bows are underpowered does not mean that every weapon better than them is overpowered. As I mentioned with slings, too... generic usage of the bows is probably worse than these weapons, but the ability to use specific arrows in the more difficult fights probably more than makes up for that.

 

Anyways:

 

Daggers: 2apr, double base damage, no strength bonus

Dwarven thrower: 1apr, near-double base damage 2d4, strength bonus

Axes: 1apr, normal base damage 1d6, strength bonus

 

The thrower appears to be the most powerful, but it's got severe usage restrictions. I think there's a nice balance between the weapons though.

[Guest temp_guest]

One thing about throwing axes:

 

It was mentioned in the old bioware forums and also in the KR forum (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=19135), that the specialization (damage) bonuses are not added to throwing axes.

[Demivrgvs]

Item randomization vs item re-allocation

EDIT: Oh, and having the balancing and redistribution of weapons as a component, what would that accomplish? Some weapons would be no-brainers still, and others would, likewise still, be crap. Possibly not crap in and of itself, but if a weapon is outdone in all aspects by another weapon, it wouldn't be used right? As far as I see it, IR is the sum of it's parts, and removing such central features as have been discussed would render the entire mod moot.

Funny, that too is the optic of Improved Anvil.

Revisions mod are indeed inted to be a sort of entire "new platform", and are designed to work together, with each and every component having its role in the big picture. The similarity with IA ends there though, especially considering almost all global changes are optional (IR V3 moved another step towards this), and nothing prevents you from radically customize the install selecting only a bunch of items/spells if you wish so.

 

I do support any install, and we always work to make these mods compatible with pretty much anything out there, but Revisions mod are indeed intended and designed to work on certain installs, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

Moving a very powerful shield from a character who cannot use it to one who can really benefit from it is whimsical? Removing a heavy armor from a barbarian who shouldn't be able to wear it, to replace it with a better and lighter armor is a bad idea? Having opponents keep powerful and unique items in the backpack, unused, instead of using them against you seems better? Do you think that trying to give opponents items that better suit their class, qualities or abilities to exploit their sinergy (e.g. barbarians getting the most from their innate physical res and an item increasing it) is a waste of time?

Those changes sound reasonable in their own right. However, I don't see them within the scope of an Item Revisions mod. To be more precise, I don't see why a mod which revises items should care whether enemies use them or simply keep them in their inventories. IMHO, that should be done as a separate mod or an optional component at best.

In fact, the whole re-allocation thing is a separate "optional but highly recommended" component...which on second thought makes me wonder: what are we discussing about? It's a very cool feature/component which has great sinergy with the main component of IR but you can skip it if you wish so, or install Item Randomizer if you prefer it. Where's the problem?

 

Enchantment lvl (aka "we need +3 weapons!")

Demi, I have taken your list and added some notes:

I'll do somthing similar.

 

The cursed items are just that, cursed. If I can't put it down, I'm not picking it up.

That is not how you should see cursed items within IR, but I'll try to explain it on each item.

 

- Backbiter: yeah it's cursed, but far from unusable for those few encounters where you absolutely need a +3 weapon. You don't need to swing it much to deal with 1-2 golems, and it deals tremendous dmg. It inflicts 14.5 points of dmg on average (before STR, class, and proficiency bonuses) and 2handed weapon style doubles its critical hit chance bonus, making the spear score criticals with a 15-20 roll (aka 30% of times). Now, I'm open to suggestion to make its drawback partially "counterable" (e.g. making it deal a certain type of dmg you can protect yourself from, or something similar), but even without such tweak I think it can be used with good results.

 

- Vampire's Revenge: I guess you have in mind vanilla's unusable version of it. Within V3 this is a vampiric long sword +3, which very slowly drains wielder's hit points. As long as you use it in battle against a creature who's not immune to life drain this weapon's drawback is auto-countered by its own on hit effect, but if that isn't enough, or you need it to fight against golems or undead creature (which are are immune to vampiric effects within V3) any regenerating item (e.g. Pearly White Ioune Stone or Cloak of the Wolf) is enough to "nullify" the sword's drawback.

 

- Kiel's Morningstar & Berserking Greatsword: the berserking drawback is negligible imo when you just need to tear down 1-2 golems or similary tough creatures.

 

- Cleric's Staff, Azuredge & Mace of Disruption: yes, they all are Undead Bane weapons (though I'd love to replace Disruption effect from the axe with something else), but that's because undead creatures are amongst the few creature types (together with golems and demons) with powerful specimens (e.g. greater mummies) requiring high enchantment lvl to be hit. That being said, if you need to crush a bunch of +2 immune golems, both the staff and the mace are actually still quite good because of their crushing dmg type.

 

- Root of the Problem: seriously, druids are almost the only ones who'd ever consider taking club proficiency anyway. This club is purposedly powerful as an incentive to play a druid and complete the relative stronghold quest.

 

- Hammer of Thunderbolts: I didn't said it was easy to obtain, actually it wouldn't be a +3 weapon with elemental dmg if it was easy to obtain. As I said, within V3 weapons are more or less divided in two categories, 'normal' (the vast majority of weapons belong to this category) and 'hard to obtain but slightly more powerful'. This hammer belongs to pre-UD, but it's sligly more powerful than most pre-UD 1handed weapons because it's hard to obtain. That being said, it's there, and reaching it isn't impossible (getting to Carsomyr or Celestial Fury should be harder in theory).

 

- Wyrmcleaver: yeah, I'm glad at least here we can easily agree this is a little gem now.

 

- Dragonslayer: I haven't nerfed its Slicing effect, I made it more consistent following player's suggestion. Allowing a save was making it not effective against dragons and their uber good saves, thus I made the effect trigger with a lowered % chance but no save. Regarding long swords being a common pick, it should be like that and always will.

 

- Flail of Ages: it still probably is one of the best picks despite my "nerf". Toning it down without breaking its flavour was a real challenge.

 

- Staff of Striking: I forgot this! Since V2 this is a seriously understimated staff with great potential to fill the "I need a +3 weapon". It's semi-unique, thus not hard to find, and its charges now replenish each day, making it ideal when you need it for just a limited amount of encounters.

 

Now, how many times +3 is really needed before adventuring in the Underdark? Almost any weapon type seem to have at least one +3 specimen even before UD, and considering you need +3 enchantment lvl no more than 2-3 times I really don't see the problem.

It's not just about not having +3 weapons. There's also the issue of dramatically lowering the base enchantment of some weapons to the point of making them near useless for the mid-late game. Take Frostreaver for example. It was a pretty cool +3 axe in the original game. Now, it's a puny +1 weapon which can't even hit a Fire Elemental or a Stone Golem and will probably get discarded very early on.

I think you are really overstimating the amount of times you do need +2 or +3 enchantment (humanoids, monsters, drows and so on are by far way more common than elementals, demons and golems), but playtesting is the only way to determine it. As soon as we manage to have some feedback from beta testers we'll now.

[Daulmakan]

Revisions mod are indeed inted to be a sort of entire "new platform", and are designed to work together, with each and every component having its role in the big picture. The similarity with IA ends there though, especially considering almost all global changes are optional (IR V3 moved another step towards this), and nothing prevents you from radically customize the install selecting only a bunch of items/spells if you wish so.

 

I do support any install, and we always work to make these mods compatible with pretty much anything out there, but Revisions mod are indeed intended and designed to work on certain installs, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I know. Don't worry, I was just kidding.

[Ardanis]

It was mentioned in the old bioware forums and also in the KR forum (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=19135), that the specialization (damage) bonuses are not added to throwing axes.

See my response there (Bioware's GeN1e is me). It was a miscalculation on the reporter's part, and they have argeed with it themselves when pointed out.

[Guest Guest_J Beau_*]

What happens to the staff of striking when it gets to 0 charges?

[Thailog]

In fact, the whole re-allocation thing is a separate "optional but highly recommended" component...

 

It is? That's cool then, I was under the impression that it was an integral part of the main component. You'll get no more complaints on that account from me then.

 

I think you are really overstimating the amount of times you do need +2 or +3 enchantment (humanoids, monsters, drows and so on are by far way more common than elementals, demons and golems)

 

From my experience, anything with a base enchantment less than +2 becomes useless pretty early on. There are plenty of creatures that require at least a +2 weapons in the first chapters of the game. Golems and various mists (Crimson Death, Mist Horror) are fairly common, elementals and demons pop up here and there (Planar Sphere, Planar Prison, Guarded Compound) and even the Chapter 2 version of Bodhi and some of her vampire minions need at least a +2 weapon to hit.

 

In light of that, I support Ardanis' idea for making the enchantment level nerfing optional too.

[Demivrgvs]

Staff of Striking

What happens to the staff of striking when it gets to 0 charges?

If you consume the last charge it is destroyed, much like wands. Afaik there's no way to prevent it.

 

Enchantment lvl

I think you are really overstimating the amount of times you do need +2 or +3 enchantment (humanoids, monsters, drows and so on are by far way more common than elementals, demons and golems)

From my experience, anything with a base enchantment less than +2 becomes useless pretty early on. There are plenty of creatures that require at least a +2 weapons in the first chapters of the game. Golems and various mists (Crimson Death, Mist Horror) are fairly common, elementals and demons pop up here and there (Planar Sphere, Planar Prison, Guarded Compound) and even the Chapter 2 version of Bodhi and some of her vampire minions need at least a +2 weapon to hit.

I know BG2 continuously puts similar creatures here and there, but they are still a minority. I do think it's all a matter of not wanting to switch weapons, isn't it? Frostreaver is a cold based weapon, and within V3 even with +3 enchantment neither its Icy blade nor its Chilling effect would work on the creatures you've mentioned (mists, vampires and golems). Otoh Stonefire has +2 enchantment, and fire dmg is very effective against undead creatures. If you ask me, it's just a matter of equipping both weapons, and quickly switching between them depending on the target, because against humanoids Frostreaver is way more effective imo. Am I wrong?

 

In light of that, I support Ardanis' idea for making the enchantment level nerfing optional too.

For reasons I've explained before, I'm really against it if it's just a "restore vanilla enchantment ignoring everything else", because it would seriously mess up my work. Anyway, I'll discuss this with Ardanis.

[Pacek]

If you ask me, IR should come with 2 optional components: Install and not install. Total revision for the win!

[J Beau]

Staff of Striking

What happens to the staff of striking when it gets to 0 charges?

If you consume the last charge it is destroyed, much like wands. Afaik there's no way to prevent it.

 

I'm assuming 1X per day items work in a different way. What about the ring of invisibility, its 3X per day? Is it destroyed at 0 charges? This was one of the reasons I almost never used the original staff of striking. You don't count your number of attacks in the middle of battles. It's one of those "I'll save it for a rainy day items" that never gets used. Unfortunate because I like that it recharges itself now. If you are a fighter that specializes in staffs and you are under the effects of haste, those charges are going to go really fast. Oh well.

 

Just for the record, I would also like to see some optional component of restoring enchantment level. There are a couple ways that could be handled you know. The good part about that is that your vision wouldn't be messed with. Its still fully intact as the main way the mod is installed. This would just be an optional component for all those "insane" people out there.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If you ask me, IR should come with 2 optional components: Install and not install. Total revision for the win!

O Rly.

 

I'm assuming 1X per day items work in a different way. What about the ring of invisibility, its 3X per day? Is it destroyed at 0 charges? This was one of the reasons I almost never used the original staff of striking. You don't count your number of attacks in the middle of battles. It's one of those "I'll save it for a rainy day items" that never gets used.

Well in the vanilla, the ring of invisibility, actually disappears until you rest.

And the staff of striking has "enhancement" power that needs to be used to actually use a charge from it, and it has the amount of charges to use, just like the wands.

[Demivrgvs]

Staff of Striking

Staff of Striking

What happens to the staff of striking when it gets to 0 charges?

If you consume the last charge it is destroyed, much like wands. Afaik there's no way to prevent it.

I'm assuming 1X per day items work in a different way. What about the ring of invisibility, its 3X per day? Is it destroyed at 0 charges? This was one of the reasons I almost never used the original staff of striking. You don't count your number of attacks in the middle of battles. It's one of those "I'll save it for a rainy day items" that never gets used. Unfortunate because I like that it recharges itself now. If you are a fighter that specializes in staffs and you are under the effects of haste, those charges are going to go really fast. Oh well.

Ring of Invisibility isn't destroyed if you consume its 3 charges within IR. Otoh I have to let SoS disappear when charges are consumed because else you'd be able to use it as much as you want even when charges are depleted. Back then I tried to find a workaround by having the staff replace itself with a non-magical one when charges are depleted, and ideally that staff could replace itself again after resting to restore the original SoS. The problem was (at least I think so, it was ages ago) that the "consumed staff" created upon depleting SoS charges comes already charged and ready to re-create SoS right away, preventing the whole point.

 

That being said, as long as you keep an eye on the charge count I do think the staff is usable, even under Haste. Obviously we're speaking of using it only in limited circumstances, like tearing down those 1-2 pesky iron golems within the Planar Sphere. The limited number of charges (25 right now) prevents this uber powerful staff from being used more than occasionally.

[SixOfSpades]

I don't understand . . . how it is possible to have a crappy weapon with a +10 enhancement lvl. Can you give me some examples?

Well, you could have a Morningstar that grants the user Grandmastery in Halberd while equipped, or a Paladin-only helmet that gives bonus Wizard spellslots. The Axe of Hrothgar comes pretty close, too, with its WIS bonus that's virtually useless unless you've got Ashes of Embers or something (and even then, you can't switch to your Sling without erasing those extra spellslots). But barring obvious stupidities like that, the weapon could be carry fantastically powerful X-bane enchantments but lack the requisite enchantment level to actually hit X (e.g., Jerrod's Mace being only a +1 weapon), or the item could grant a whole bunch of pitifully weak enchantments (+1% Resistance to each of the 10 forms of damage, whoopdeedoo), or immunities to spells or effects that are never used against you ("User cannot be Magnetized . . . what's Magnetized?").

 

For example restoring Frostreaver's +3 enchantment lvl on top of its cold damage and slow effect means getting an incredibly powerful weapon too early in the game.

It could always be made 2-handed . . . it was the favored weapon of a Frost Giant, after all . . . I'm just sayin' . . .

 

Returning Weapons

I was one of those people who referred to vanilla's magical Throwing Daggers as "Throwing Bastard Swords," and I'm proud to say so. I for one couldn't care less whether the PnP sourcebooks say their damage should be doubled or not, the fact that it simply doesn't make sense is more than enough for me. If I'm knife-fighting some guy, should I try to stab him, or should I think, "Hmm, if I let go of my knife an instant before it hits him, it'll count as a thrown weapon and therefore hurt him twice as much?"

 

Frankly, I'm getting the feeling that IR is running in circles with this. First, it nerfs some weapons while powering up others. Next, it moves the weapons around to compensate for this.

"Nerfing some weapons while boosting others" is the natural and desired result when the overall goal of the mod, after all, is to correct the huge discrepancies seen in the vanilla game. Of course the Flail of Ages was nerfed, otherwise there would be precious little point in using any other 1-handed weapon except Celestial Fury. Of course Ardulia's Fall was enhanced, the original version was nothing but a paperweight. To improve both would be next to folly, to nerf both would be next to impossible. And as other posters have already pointed out, the location re-allocation has always been for reasons of game balance, logic, and plausibility--because plenty of vanilla's item placements just plain had issues.

(Can you just picture Ilyich? "Oh, wow, it's the Helm of Balduran. Here I am, without any helmet of my own, and here's the most powerful helmet in the whole dang saga, I think I should . . . place it carefully on a shelf and make sure to dust it twice a week.")

 

Every weapon/armor type should be appealing and available throughout the entire game.

Out of curiosity, are you planning to change the way that [unenchanted] Hide Armor is in nearly every way inferior to Studded Leather?

 

Regarding the "Planar Sphere' golems need +3 weapons" issue we'll actually handle it better than vanilla did imo. I agreed on placing there a +3 weapon (vanilla didn't offered any - I suggested a Staff of Striking which is almost an anti-golem weapom, but feel free to suggest a better candidate)

I don't see any mention of the Rod of Smiting in the V3 documentation . . . now, granted, placing the RoS in the Planar Sphere might be seen as being a bit too convenient, and I'd tend to agree . . . but since the Sphere is obviously such a hotbed of Golem-mancy, it might not be unwarranted.

 

- Cleric's Staff – You say its usable by clerics, it’s not clear if its only usable by clerics. It’s only good for undead though.

Huh? The Item Index makes no mention of this, just a +1 to WIS and Aid effects while equipped . . . and the Staff itself is listed as a +2 weapon, to boot. Sounds like the Item Index thread could use an update, and why the HELL does the game have yet another anti-Undead thing in it?!?

 

- Flail of Ages: it still probably is one of the best picks despite my "nerf". Toning it down without breaking its flavour was a real challenge.

I still say the best thing to do would be to do a direct swap of Slow effects: IR FoA gets vanilla Ardulia's Fall Slow effects, while IR Ardulia gets vanilla FoA's.