IR V3 - List of changes from V2 to V3

[Demivrgvs]

Rod of Smiting

Thanks Lawlight, I'll surely use IWD lore! I'll make it a club and leave its combat abilities pretty much unchanged unless we think I should nerf it insta-kill effect vs golems much like it has been suggested for MoD).

 

Rod of Terror

I'm less convinced instead of the suggested IWD lore for it, but I could merge it with the original one. I'm also unsure of which on hit effect this weapon should have, because the best choice would be to make it a Dooming weapon, but I really cannot find anything to replace such effect for Bone Club. Ardanis also suggested a paralyzing fear effect. On one hand I fear there are too many similar effects (aka lesser Celestial Fury clones), otoh we indeed not have any disabling club and this is an underused weapon type anyway (1d4 dmg severely lowers the appeal for warriors). That being said, a Dooming effect would fit best imo, providing I can find something else for Bone Club. Then we can easily grant the rod a x/day Horror or Cloak of Fear.

 

P.S Due to all those Bane effects I have really too many +3/+4 clubs: Bone Club, Root of the Problem, Rod of Smiting, Rod of Terror and Club of Detonation.

 

Rod of Resurrection

The requirement for calling upon divine help can not just be the ability to read or talk. Because otherwise every class could learn the words and could bestow divine help on themselves and their allies. ... The rod, just like a wand, instead is a vessel for an already imbued power and role playing wise is easier to think of it as an item that can be used by non casters. If it was not for balance reasons, I'd welcome the use of magic items only to arcane and divine practitioners but since that's not the case, keeping the rods usable to anyone that meet the WIS requirement and the divine scrolls only to clerics seems to me the best alternative.

That's almost exactly what I think. If I have to let one item be usable by anyone (I would restrict both), between the rod and the scroll I'd surely pick the rod. I'd simply add a WIS requirement (e.g. 14) which in most cases will end up restricting it to appropriate classes anyway and at least make sure characters like Minsc and Korgan cannot go around reviving people like it's their everyday routine.

 

I'll surely remove the Heal effect from this rod though. It doesn't matter how many charges the rod has, allowing any class to fully heal a party member 30 feet away with no casting time is simply ridiculous imo.

 

Scroll of Raise Dead instead should be restricted to clerics imo (or at least priests), though we may decide to replace it with Resurrection to make it appealing. I could live without it considering we have the rod which already makes this spell almost pointless (who would waste a cleric's mid high spell slot when anyone can revive a fallen party member with a stick?!), but whatever. Scroll of Restoration too should be restricted imo. This game already offers tons of other ways to counter level drain, we really don't need to make players' life easier considering David was forced to add vampires tons of new abilities to make them a decent challenge again.

 

Rod of Absorption

It seems like everyone agrees on my suggestion here, good. Regarding deducter's doubt about how instantaneous the effect can be, I can make it truly instantaneous (casting time 0 - no animation).

 

Rod of Reversal

Considering both SCS and RR AI use Wand of Spell Striking and not this, I'm kinda tempted to just remove this wand (even it's uber ugly bam suggests it's a wand rather than a rod). If I'll ever come up with a good solution I'll use it.

 

Book of Infinite Spells

Useless item, if you ask me. Some thoughts - make it a proper book, not the russian roulette it currently is.

 

Say, let it cast from SI-like submenu.

Mmm...that would indeed be quite convenient, though I kinda like it currently works almost as per PnP. Anyway, in one case you just have to turn a few pages until you stuck with the spell you like/need the most (and you cannot risk to change it during a fight), in the other case you can select any spell at any time, making it clearly more powerful. In either case I do think allowing any class to cast a bunch mid-high lvl spells is quite great, surely far from being useless!

[Shaitan]

Shaman's staff

aka Staff of Goodberries. It's also a quest item I know, but mods like Kivan (NPC) enables you to use said staff. Besides you can decide not to use it in the sewers. Thus I ask you to look at it, I think it belongs under the wings of IR.

 

I suggest to rename it into Staff of Goodberries, and make it sellable.

[Jarno Mikkola]

P.S Due to all those Bane effects I have really too many +3/+4 clubs: Bone Club, Root of the Problem, Rod of Smiting, Rod of Terror and Club of Detonation.

This is the exact reason why I suggested that:

As a general, the rods to me should be clubs or power clubs, with on hit abilities and a few per day abilities. They may not hit as accurately and hard, as the Club of Detonation +4, but their enchantment level which determines what they can hit should be 5(6).

It could actually be a weapon category of it's own without a set proficiency.

So called power scepters... one handed blunt weapon with damage of 1, but with cast on hit abilities and *times per day cast abilities.

[Salk]

I'll surely remove the Heal effect from this rod though. It doesn't matter how many charges the rod has, allowing any class to fully heal a party member 30 feet away with no casting time is simply ridiculous imo.

 

I understand your point but if you want to be true to it then you should not remove the full healing ability of the rod but rather change its range to 1 (and I would even lower the number of charges).

[Lawlight]

While we're on the missing stuff, whats about Wand of Apprenti (vanilla) and Web Sack (added by UB)? I like the idea behind Web Sack in general, but I dont use it at the moment because it is seriously overpowered. Wand of Apprenti maybe only needs to be brought in line with IR's wand standart's and an updated description.

[Demivrgvs]

P.S Due to all those Bane effects I have really too many +3/+4 clubs: Bone Club, Root of the Problem, Rod of Smiting, Rod of Terror and Club of Detonation.

This is the exact reason why I suggested that:

As a general, the rods to me should be clubs or power clubs, with on hit abilities and a few per day abilities. They may not hit as accurately and hard, as the Club of Detonation +4, but their enchantment level which determines what they can hit should be 5(6).

It could actually be a weapon category of it's own without a set proficiency.

So called power scepters... one handed blunt weapon with damage of 1, but with cast on hit abilities and *times per day cast abilities.

Yeah, so instead of having too many +3/+4 weapons I'll have +5 ones, if not +6 ones which I banned for a reason.

 

Rod of Resurrection

I'll surely remove the Heal effect from this rod though. It doesn't matter how many charges the rod has, allowing any class to fully heal a party member 30 feet away with no casting time is simply ridiculous imo.

I understand your point but if you want to be true to it then you should not remove the full healing ability of the rod but rather change its range to 1 (and I would even lower the number of charges).

That would partially reduce the issue, but the instant "Revive + Heal" itself is too much imo, especially for an item which can be used by any class during combat. Other players are even suggesting to force heavy penalties on the revived chracter to avoid exploiting this rod during a fight, but having no armor and only one hit point should be enough to make sure the rod remain only a convenient post-battle item (temples and NPC priests are enough in my games but to each his own).

 

Wands and Rods

Btw, I think I've finally understood the difference between wands and rods within PnP.

 

Wands: contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. They consume charges, only spellcasters can use them, and they can do so only if the relative spell would be allowed in their speelbook.

 

Rods: generally have a unique magical powers and do not usually have charges. Anyone can use a rod.

 

We're more or less respecting PnP rules for wands, though we have few exceptions with a 5th lvl spells (Cloudkill and WoSS' Breach) and one exception with a 6th lvl spell (WoSS' Pierce Magic). We're slighlty less true to PnP when it comes to rods, but in general we are.

 

Web Sack & Wand of Apprenti

While we're on the missing stuff, whats about Wand of Apprenti (vanilla) and Web Sack (added by UB)? I like the idea behind Web Sack in general, but I dont use it at the moment because it is seriously overpowered. Wand of Apprenti maybe only needs to be brought in line with IR's wand standart's and an updated description.

Yep, I did noticed Web Sack yesterday. It was really a mess as it even had a second header with no apparent real use...anyway, I made it as per V3 standards (aka it works via spl, and its description now matches IR ones) and I've removed its hugely unbalanced -5 save penalty.

 

I don't know what to do with Wand of Apprenti instead, much like I didn't with the Robe of Apprenti. At the very least I'll make it in line with IR's standards as you say.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Yeah, so instead of having too many +3/+4 weapons I'll have +5 ones, if not +6 ones which I banned for a reason.

Actually, if you look at it, you don't... the reason is that no matter how many backstab multipliers the thief is carrying, he cannot do much more damage than a warrior with a two handed sword ... when the combined to be multiplied damage amount is 1, and there's no thac0 bonuses. That can be used to kill nearly anything that has the 1 HP, or interrupt their concentration, if they are not protected by Stone/Iron Skins, Mantles or Absolute Immunity.

[Ardanis]

Rod of Resurrection

I do not understand your logic, guys, but since I'm in a clear minority here, then whatever with usability restrictions.

Btw range doesn't matter for reviving, iirc. Raised NPC will simply appear next to Charname.

 

Rod of Reversal

Wand of Spell Thrust.

 

Rod of Terror

Percentile AoE fear effect. Should be great for crowd control - some enemies flee, others make a save and keep themselves in melee range.

 

Robe of Apprenti

Make it v2's Robe of Archmage (without alingment restriction).

[deducter]

There does need to be some way for a party to resurrect if clerics are dead and there is no high wis char. I just had this happen in the drow city, where after a brutal 20 minute battle I lost both divine casters in my party, and I don't have a party member with enough WIS to use the Rod if you set the requirement to 14. Either the scroll or the rod needs to be unrestricted, or another item needs to be added, otherwise this would force a reload, since there's no way for me to get my characters up. So I guess I cast my vote with Ardanis, perhaps that helps...

[Ardanis]

I just had this happen in the drow city, where after a brutal 20 minute battle I lost both divine casters in my party, and I don't have a party member with enough WIS to use the Rod if you set the requirement to 14.

I've been voting for non-restricted WIS 9 scroll because another divine wand (Flame Strike) is already priest-only since vanilla, whereas we do have universal green scrolls in game.

[Shaitan]

Regarding rods, I'm all in on Ardanis idea. Makes most sense to me.

 

Cheers

[Lawlight]

I still like them both to get restricted, but I can understand the arguments of the opposition. So if there should be one of the two (Rod of Resurrection & Scroll of Raise Dead) useable by anyone, I would favour Demi's solution of restricting the scroll and making the Rod an universal item, but without the high WIS restriction then (but WIS9 is too low, I don't like to see Minsc and Korgan using this! WIS 10 just do the trick). I like to quote Salk here

The rod, just like a wand, instead is a vessel for an already imbued power and role playing wise is easier to think of it as an item that can be used by non casters.

[Ardanis]

Rod of Terror

Both Cloak of Fear and Dooming abilities are used by Ravager the halberd, therefore I think neither should be added to RoT.

[Demivrgvs]

Rod of Resurrection

I do not understand your logic, guys, but since I'm in a clear minority here, then whatever with usability restrictions.

You may not agree, but I think Salk's argument was quite easy to understand. You can imagine the rod as just releasing a previously cast spell, whereas the scroll isn't pre-cast, in fact you're reading it, reciting a prayer to the gods.

 

Anyway, I'm pretty much satisfied with leaving the rod usable by anyone as per vanilla because it's also the closest solution to PnP, where rods are usable by anyone and scrolls are restricted to spellcasters. I'll only add a mid-low WIS requirement to at least avoid the silliest cases like Minsc and Korgan using it, I'd probably set it to 11 (just to claim you need to have WIS at least slightly above average to use it), but I can live with 10 (which bans only those two characters plus Nalia).

 

Rod of Reversal

Wand of Spell Thrust.

Isn't that just a lesser WoSS? Unless we keep only Breach for the latter, removing Pierce Magic, but you know how I'd feel about it. We'd make WoSS an item usable only by mages but very appealing almost only for those classes who cannot use it (e.g. Wizard Slayer).

 

Rod of Terror

Percentile AoE fear effect. Should be great for crowd control - some enemies flee, others make a save and keep themselves in melee range.

Yeah, but if it causes the melee opponent you're facing to flee away you'd still be annoyed by it, don't you? That's why many of you asked me to turn various knockback effects into knockdown, or at least knockback+serious damage.

 

If you ask me, despite them not being the most unique of effects, the only way to make a fear effect on melee hit appealing is to turn it from "flee away" to something else, like:

1) a shaken effect

2) paralysing fear

3) a terror effect to the extreme, perhaps working more or less as Phantasmal Killer with first a fear check, and then a death check

 

1) This would make it pretty much a Dooming weapon, because PnP penalties for these two effects are the same

2) We already added quite a few hold-like effects within V3, but most are unique as they come with slightly different flavor and counter (e.g. Freezing effect don't work on fire-based creatures and is countered by ProCold). This too would be slightly unique because it would be a mind-affecting effect blockable by things such as Resist Fear, but I fear we'd be adding too many hold-like effects, though we're speaking of a highly underused weapon type which doesn't have any other similar specimen.

3) The second check to avoid death is there to make the "flee away" aspect interesting, because at least you can hope the target will die after fleeing away for 1 round, but vorpal-like effects are always quite controversial.

 

 

Robe of Apprenti

Make it v2's Robe of Archmage (without alingment restriction).

Mmm...if you mean the aura which reduces opponent's saves, it would probably suit Robe of Arcane Might the most, no? Leaving aside Robe of Apprenti should be relatively bland unless we raise its price (250gp in vanilla), I'd probably expect something less imposing and more apprentice-related (no miscast? additional spell slots?).

[Ardanis]

Rod of Reversal

Isn't that just a lesser WoSS? Unless we keep only Breach for the latter, removing Pierce Magic, but you know how I'd feel about it. We'd make WoSS an item usable only by mages but very appealing almost only for those classes who cannot use it (e.g. Wizard Slayer).

1) F/M needs a Breach just as bad as a fighter does.

2) Absolute Immunity (SR v4) is also an obstacle to wizards.

3) Without SR v4 and David's support for it, Breach removes specific protections as well.

 

Rod of Terror

Yeah, but if it causes the melee opponent you're facing to flee away you'd still be annoyed by it, don't you? That's why many of you asked me to turn various knockback effects into knockdown, or at least knockback+serious damage.

A bit of negative effect, like with Harbinger and Club of Detonation?

 

1) a shaken effect

2) paralysing fear

3) a terror effect to the extreme, perhaps working more or less as Phantasmal Killer with first a fear check, and then a death check

All of it? Save at +2 to shaken, +4 - flee, +6 - paralyse, +8 - death. Single target, 100%.

 

Robe of Apprenti

If you don't want to spend gold, you can merely tell them not to make anything at all. And since appretices can manage the Staff of Power, they might as well do a robe.

Or vanilla Robe of Archmagi, with AC 5, 5% MR and +1 saves. For some reason I think that AC 3 is simply not as useful.