Kit Revisions Beta 20

[Demivrgvs]

Monk

Feedback on Monk, BG1

Same starting issues as Kensai, multiplied by 1d10 HP dice. Lots of reloading, and low THAC0/damage ensure plenty of misses and longer fights, equaling even more danger that playing with kensai. Bigest numbers of reloads was forced in a battle vs 6 Hobgoblins. Even my kensai had very little trouble dipatching them, yet monk seemed so fragile here. Now with 5/2 APR, 35 HP, things seem much brighter.

Mmm...first thing I'd say is that walking around without a party at such low levels does seem like looking for troubles, especially if you are not a true fighter, because you focus the attention off all your opponents on only 1-2 easy targets. I actually expect a Monk to be unable to "tank" alone, but what I did not expect is for him to perform much worse than a Kensai considering he has 2-4 less hit points, 2 points less of thac0, but 1 point better AC (+3 against missiles) and most importantly a full additional attack per round. In general I don't understand why having -1 thac0 (compared to non-kensai warriors) for +1 apr still makes fights last longer...my only guess is that the miss chance is already so high even for fighters that -1 becomes exceptionally noticeable (that would also mean priests and rogues thac0 must suck beyond my imagination).

 

Sounds about time to add there my revised thac0 table. All warriors getting +1 thac0 at level 1 might change things, doesn't it?

 

What about his AC? It's 2 points better than vanilla right now, does it still need a small improvement?

 

Ki abilities - I ended up using Stunning Fist the most. Being able to set up auto-hits is beyond useful. Teleportation is nice for archer killing, but it's exactly because of this ability I find Ki step useless. Why run, when you can fly?

That is why unless there's something wrong I cannot see, Abundant Step (teleport) is supposed to replace Ki Step (speed up) at level 10, are you getting both abilities at the same time?

 

Regarding Stunning Fist getting a save vs. death I could be fine with it, though pretty much all stun effects in the game require a save vs. spell (what SR consider a will save). In any case, the save should probably scale with Monk's level.

 

after gaining some levels Hobgoblins no longer present any challenge and usually die at a 2 per round rate.

Overall, he seems quite playable (I did resort to darts for first 2 levels however, as well as metagame knowledge. In SCS options for gaining levels are very few, and sometiomes it seems like you're stuck, especially when you don't have a Cleric with Hold Person/Silence) and fun.

Well...overall he's not that bad then. Considering he will improve a little bit with fighting styles (I'm already studying them), and that imo he will get the most noticeable boost from revised thac0 and save tables, we might not be far from our goal.

 

I'm very curious to hear more feedback from kalindor and Lawlight, especially if they have a bigger party.

 

Monk cannot use Oil of Speed without IR either.

Other than editing/patching the item itself I cannot do anything.

 

I seem to be able to use Stunning Fist to stun enemies with a Longsword. Ha ha.

Vanilla's behaviour, I have not touched this ability at all. I actually cannot limit it to fist only (I could make it replace mfist, but leaving aside the absurd amount of work it would require, it wouls also conflict with the planned styles/stances), and that's probably why we might be better keeping vanilla's name too, Stunning Blow.

 

Very minor: monk description is missing the "MONK:" at the beginning. I am going to give the monk a whirl now.

Fixed thanks.

 

Also, there is an empty space between Ki Arrow and Wholeness of Body in the Ki Pool menu.

?!? 2da files seem fine...I'll look into it.

 

Ki Arrow's animation is not very convincing, heh heh.

I don't know which animation would fit better...any suggestion? Edited June 16, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Monk

Mmm...first thing I'd say is that walking around without a party at such low levels does seem like looking for troubles

I am looking for trouble .

 

In general I don't understand why having -1 thac0 (compared to non-kensai warriors) for +1 apr still makes fights last longer...my only guess is that the miss chance is already too high even for fighters and that -1 becomes exceptionally noticeable (that would also mean priests and rogues thac0 must suck beyond my imagination).

I'll explain, I actually wanted to write something about this issue anyway. Glad you reminded me.

First, let me say that this is a game issue, not a "Kit Revisions" issue. Monsters in BG1 are, very generally speaking, divided into 2 raw categories - those which you can kill in a single hit in melee (these include Gibberlings , Hobgoblins, Flinds, a number of humans etc.) and those you can not such as Ogres, Clerics and mages (I think this applies to SCS only, not vanilla), Bears etc. In the very beginning, first type of enemies make for 99% of encounters. What happens with monk is that he cannot kill such enemies in a single hit often. That exposes him quite a bit. I'd rather have 1 apr which kils stuff immediately (kensai with 2-handed sword) than 2 weak attacks that

a)need to hit stuff (early on, even kensai misses often.)

b)need to roll a number between 3(18 strenght) and 8 (max damage) for damage consideration

For example, my kensai had 18/65 strenght, 2* sword, 2* two handed style. 2d6 weapon. (2d6 + 3(strenght) + 1(style) + 2(proficiency)) = 7 minimum and 17 maximum damage. Almost double what monk gets. Half-orcs could get even better numbers. This kill such low HP beasties on first hit, hence battles last shorter and kensai has few oponnents that actually take a swing at him. I imagine (and I'll try that today) that kensai should be dual-wielding for maximum effect. Not only would he attack faster, but having 2 attacks from level 1 seem too good to pass on, and Ki Strike would be more useful.

 

Sounds about time to add there my revised thac0 table. All warriors getting +1 thac0 at level 1 might change things, doesn't it?

It does, even such low numbers help immensly in the beginning. To be honest, I'd vote that only Kensai gets those, but that's just me.

 

What about his AC? It's 2 points better than vanilla right now, does it still need a small improvement?

It's fine. There was an old mod (and I took the time to find it yesterday), it's called Vedran's lost items, which

gave monks +3 AC and +1 THAC0 at level 1 if they had Wisdom over 16 I think. I usually played with this, since vanilla monk is pathetic that early. Don't forget that monks level up really fast. I'd say - fine, but if you want to add another +1 AC it's also fine by me.

That is why unless there's something wrong I cannot see, Abundant Step (teleport) is supposed to replace Ki Step (speed up) at level 10, are you getting both abilities at the same time?

No, I somehow tought that Ki dodge is teleport..... . Damn that yesterday's testing for level-up abilities.

 

Regarding Stunning Fist getting a save vs. death I could be fine with it, though pretty much all stun effects in the game require a save vs. spell (what SR consider a will save). In any case, the save should probably scale with Monk's level.

I'd consider it as a fortitude save, and imo it would make more sense that fighters are more able to resist such hits than mages. Anyway, yea for penalty to saving throw at higher levels.

Well...overall he's not that bad then. Considering he will improve a little bit with fighting styles (I'm already studying them), and that imo he will get the most noticeable boost from revised thac0 and save tables, we might not be far from our goal.

He isn't. Stealth is very powerful in BG1 (don't forget that being invisible gives you a +4THAC0 bonus), and players will witness a huge power boost with some decent equpment (Claw of Kazgaroth, for example, with 18 constitution monk looses no HP for wearing it), and by levels themselves. I like my monk and how she's developing. With Ogre Strenght gauntlets, I imagine she'll be on par with dual-wielding fighters.

As for styles, some of those listed in Pathfinder are very nice indeed. I liked Boar style.

 

I'm very curious to hear more feedback from kalindor and Lawlight, especially if they have a bigger party.

I'm going to have 5 eventually (albeit only women are allowed ) in party as well, but I'd also like more feedback.

 

Monk cannot use Oil of Speed without IR either.

Other than editing/patching the item itself I cannot do anything.

I don't know if NearInfinity works with BG:EE which I assume you're playing. If not, you can use

unless BG:EE fixed it.

 

I seem to be able to use Stunning Fist to stun enemies with a Longsword. Ha ha.

..........................

Ki Arrow's animation is not very convincing, heh heh.

I don't know which animation would fit better...any suggestion?

I have no suggestions on this matter (or pretty much anything incuding description/graphic issues), I generally tend to overlook such things and think more about effects in game. Am glad someone does, however.

 

P.S.

A suggestion to make Ki Strike more useful for Kensai in BG1 - add +2 or +3 THAC0 when using that ability.

Edited June 16, 2013 by kreso

[kreso]

Further feedback on monk, BG1

Now at level 6...faster progression really came to play here. Rest of the party is Shar-Teel, Imoen now dualed to mage, Viconia and Jaheira.

Monk's power is nice here. She has 3(!) APR, the equivalent of a 7th level long-sword dual-wielding fighter. Bit les damage/THAC0, but it's balanced nicely.

Fighter will probably gain offensive edge again at level 7 (fighter also beats monk tanking-wise) when 2 APR become available, along with 4*in a weapon. Monk's level progression is the real deal in their favour here, given that level 7 fighter needs 64k exp for that extra 1/2 attack, while monk gets (at level 6) his before 30k.

Stunning blow is still the weapon of choice, and if I hadn't monk along I doubt I could do Mutamin&basilisk company so easilly and with no petrifications. I expect (may be wrong, but we'll see) Shar-Teel to gain more power now (Spider's Bane) and my monk seems have all he needs (apart some equipment pieces) already, I don't expect her to get much better (Manual of Gainful Excercise/Ogre gauntlets are a long way from where she stands now)- but it's overall already a huge improvement over vanilla. If I'd have to compare him to something, I'd say he plays like a fighter/swashbuckler combination.

Clerics remain the most dangerous oponnents imo. Hard to hit, powerful spells, both of which make a monk's life miserable.

[Kalindor]

I must say that in my hands the 2 attacks per round right out of the gate make all the difference in making the monk playable compared to vanilla early on.

[Demivrgvs]

Kensai

A suggestion to make Ki Strike more useful for Kensai in BG1 - add +2 or +3 THAC0 when using that ability.

That's exactly why I asked about the miss chance last time we discussed this. I was indeed considering that at low levels an ability to boost accuracy might be really useful (it has been requested for the Monk's Ki pool too). Pathfinder's Kensai gets Perfect Strike (max damage) while the Weapon Master gets Reliable Strike (re-roll failed attack roll or low dmg roll), and I was pondering the idea of combining the two abilities by granting extra accuracy at low levels and then max damage as an upgrade (in case we make Ki abilities upgrade as we did for the Monk class). We'll see...the good thing is that judging by your reports KR's Kensai seems to already be a great class for both BG1 and BG2, which means we can take our time to further refine him with small changes.

 

Monk

Further feedback on monk, BG1

Now at level 6... Monk's power is nice here. ... it's overall already a huge improvement over vanilla.

I must say that in my hands the 2 attacks per round right out of the gate make all the difference in making the monk playable compared to vanilla early on.

Good to hear that even if it's still not perfect at least the current Monk is doing well.

 

Xp tables

As a side note, just because level progression has been brought up quite a few times, I'd like to mention that ideally I'd like to add an optional component to make all classes share the same xp table. I know AD&D purists may not like it, and that's why I guess I'll have to keep it optional, but balancing classes with the current tables is really harder, and later PnP editions did the right thing on this matter imo. Till now I'm almost ignoring xp tables, taking them into account only as a marginal factor, despite them playing quite big role instead (the difference between the slowest xp tables and the fastest ones is really huge).

 

I do appreciate certain aspects of AD&D tables, and I partially understand the logic behind them, but the cons vastly outnumber the supposed benefits imo. Just to mention a few thing:

- random progression rates which do not make any sense imo (e.g. mages level up faster than paladins early on, but then they become slower - druids not even need to be discussed, their xp table is simply ridiculous).

- spellcasters with fast progression (bard and to a slightly lesser extent clerics) have better lvl based spells than those cast by mages because the latters have a slow progression (e.g. they dispel better than an Abjurer specialist)

- abilities which take target's HD into account work best against powerful classes with slow progression tables (e.g. paladins), why?

- classes with fast tables get more HLAs (e.g. a fighter/thief can actually stack up more Whirlwind Attacks than a single class Fighter)

 

In general, vanilla's tables make handling the balance between different base classes extremely harder imo.

 

Edit: XP table discussion moved here.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Mike1072
split XP table discussion

[Demivrgvs]

@Beta Testers, initially the idea was to release all paladin kits around dinner (you guessed well kreso), but I've decided to upload the base class now because it's ready and I would actually like someone to test quite a few things about it.

 

Other than pointing out the usual stupid errors I might have done I'm particularly interested in:

- Smite Evil works with multiple shell spells, does it work correctly?

- does Turn Undead become available at level 3 as expected?

- I've tried a dirty little trick to implement a unique Paladin Spellbook (at every level up, a spl will erase/add the relative spells from the character spellbook - the spl is applied with a small 1 sec delay to hopefully overwrite spellbook's automatic update at each level up). I'm not sure it works, but if it does I'll be extremely happy because it would also allow me to fix Ranger/Cleric getting druid spells, and all of it without the need of SR or a Divine Remix like sphere system. Short story: let me know if spells such as Command, Doom, Cause Wounds, Animate Dead, Poison, etc. are still there - if yes, it's not working.

- can you manage to test the actual caster level used by paladins to cast their spells? A good way to check it is using spells such as Draw Upon Divine Might and see how much +X bonus you get.

 

Thanks

Edited June 23, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Going to try them out asap. Thanks for the upload.

[kreso]

Fast feedback, will post more later since I can't play now:

He seems to heal himself using "lay on hands" every time he gains another use of "Smite Evil"

Level 14 aura seems to fire of a non-damaging Sunfire animation

Good news:

You fixed his spells :D Great job, no more skeletons and poisons.

He gains Turn Undead at level 3.

Caster level seems fine, he doesn't get more than +1 bonus for DUHM for BG1 levels, gains +2 score bonuses later (as he should)

Smite evil seems to be working correctly, Blindness allows for save correctly and works as intended.

 

Things I need to check:

Aura of protection - how it is affecting evil creatures, it correctly works for +1 to saves for party (still has Sunfire animation)

Lay on hands curing poison/disease

[Demivrgvs]

You fixed his spells :D Great job, no more skeletons and poisons.

COOL!!! I cannot understand why I never thought before about this relatively easy possible solution. This makes me really really happy.

 

He seems to heal himself using "lay on hands" every time he gains another use of "Smite Evil"

Eh? I'm not sure what you mean...when you get to level 4 and 8 a small animation is triggered?

 

Level 14 aura seems to fire of a non-damaging Sunfire animation

I probably messed up the projectile. Will fix right away.

 

He gains Turn Undead at level 3.

Smite evil seems to be working correctly, Blindness allows for save correctly and works as intended.

Yeah!

 

Caster level seems fine, he doesn't get more than +1 bonus for DUHM for BG1 levels, gains +2 score bonuses later (as he should)

Keep an eye on it in the future please, I have a "+ x bonus to caster level" (the unused dvplcast.spl) ready to fill the gaps if necessary.

 

Aura of protection - how it is affecting evil creatures, it correctly works for +1 to saves for party

Lay on hands curing poison/disease

Ehm...the Aura currently don't check for evil targets. LOL, will fix. LoH should work. Edited June 23, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Ummm...my mistake, he uses Lay on hands at each level up...regardless of Smite Evil.

 

Keep an eye on it in the future please, I have a "+ x bonus to caster level" (the unused dvplcast.spl) ready to fill the gaps if necessary.

Will do.

 

Ehm...the Aura currently don't check for evil targets. LOL, will fix. LoH should work.

I noticed it works for Chaotic Evil Xzar...but those gnolls near High Hedge seem to be neutral, ditto asassins in Candlekeep

 

EDITED:

I need to re-check this Lay o Hands.

 

EDIT 2:

He cures himself at level 6, 9, 12, 15.....

Edited June 23, 2013 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Found the problem with Lay on Hands, gimme some time to fix the auras and I'll re-upload everything asap.

[kreso]

Good. I won't be able to try it out for few hours.

[Demivrgvs]

True Paladin

Good. I won't be able to try it out for few hours.

Re-uploaded. Auras and additional uses of LoH should work fine now. I'll probably be kinda busy too for a couple of hours. Hopefully nothing major should still be out there, you pretty much looked at all his abilities.

 

Anyway, I'm still excited about the unique spellbook tweak actually working. No more paladins raising undead armies and rangers unleashing ice storms.

[Lawlight]

I've tried a dirty little trick to implement a unique Paladin Spellbook (at every level up, a spl will erase/add the relative spells from the character spellbook - the spl is applied with a small 1 sec delay to hopefully overwrite spellbook's automatic update at each level up). I'm not sure it works, but if it does I'll be extremely happy because it would also allow me to fix Ranger/Cleric getting druid spells, and all of it without the

You fixed his spells :D Great job, no more skeletons and poisons.

COOL!!! I cannot understand why I never thought before about this relatively easy possible solution. This makes me really really happy.

 

I can confirm this. If you pause while lvling up you see spells like doom again in the spellbook and can select/memorise them. But once you end pause they all get smoothly erased.

 

Good job.

 

can you manage to test the actual caster level used by paladins to cast their spells? A good way to check it is using spells such as Draw Upon Divine Might and see how much +X bonus you get.

 

What is the intended progression rate within KR?

 

Draw Upon Divine Might improves to +2 at level 14 the first time. That seems a bit late to me, considering they get Dinvine Spellcasting at 4th level.

 

Is it really necessary to keep the reduced casterlevel for them? I mean, they've only access to low level spells anyway...

 

And it is not really transparent for the user either...

 

If it has to stay, it should really be mentioned in the class description...

 

Auras and additional uses of LoH should work fine now.

 

Seems to be the case.

 

I'd like to have an portrait icon or the Aura though...

Edited June 23, 2013 by Lawlight

[Demivrgvs]

You fixed his spells :D Great job, no more skeletons and poisons.

COOL!!! I cannot understand why I never thought before about this relatively easy possible solution. This makes me really really happy.

I can confirm this. If you pause while lvling up you see spells like doom again in the spellbook and can select/memorise them. But once you end pause they all get smoothly erased.

Damn, I don't like flaws, even small ones such as this. Is it possible to use those "forbidden spells" memorized in that split second before the unique spellbook takes its place? I now it would be only for that one time and never again, but I'd hate it. We could try removing the 1 sec delay and see if the trick still works.